Asslessman
Member
dral":2djtpu9d said:
Make it pulled by 2 Great spined dragons and you have it (with termies on each of course)
RIP Warhammer
- Thread starter mbh
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Make it pulled by 2 Great spined dragons and you have it (with termies on each of course)
Grumdril
Member
dral":30kfd2hn said:
Coopdevil":30kfd2hn said:
This is interesting stuff and not something I'd heard before. Even if TSR UK had never been set up though, you can see why GW would want to diversify away from one big distribution deal. I've also heard elsewhere on the interwebs of WFB being conceived from within Citadel, and even without the TSR situation you can see how a miniature manufacturer would be interested in developing such a thing. Either way though at some point though the sale of miniatures went from being a subsidiary activity to the majority earner. At some other point non-Warhammer stuff went from being second fiddle to effectively being dropped, I've no clear picture in my mind of when this happened but it seems to me that it happened before it was inevitable, i.e. following the stock market floatation.
Much as I love WFRP though, this isn't for me "where it all went wrong" with GW.
Count Von Bruno":30kfd2hn said:They've always stressed that the rules are just there as a guideline and encouraged people to make their own adjustments and additions, I am far from enthusiastic about the modern/current aesthetic and direction of 40K in particular but (present company excluded, of course) but for all the whinging about this or that sucks or is broken etc etc I think the players need to take more responsibility for the state of their game rather than blaming it all on the Evil Empire.
Nobody's forcing Joe to buy 5 land raiders, 2 baneblades, a thunderhawk and a titan (let alone use them all in the one game) just because there's a formation or whatever that gives you an unlocked special rule- sure GW are going to dangle the carrot ( because people encourage them ) but if Joe and his playing group stopped the arms race and came to an agreement maybe they wouldn't feel the need to stockpile a brand new car's worth of tanks and robots etc to "stay in the game".
To my mind there are two key differences between 2nd / 3rd edition and now, the completeness of the rules and the tone of the game. The current version of these are why I'm not interested in modern Warhammer.
2nd / 3rd were complete games (setting aside for a moment that 3rd didn't have the point calculation system). Since then there's been the core rules and then extras (i.e. army books), I'd imagine that without a good number of the latter you don't really have the framework to make your own additions, at least not in a way that might be recognisable to someone else trying to do the same thing independently. So for all they might say to do this you don't really have a decent set of tools.
There's then the tone / power level / whatever you call it. In second edition your named heroes were interesting and limited (I'm thinking of the Lichemaster for example). Published scenarios had points values in the 1000-1500 range. Then Warhammer Armies (intentionally or not) made 3000 points the standard, and again you can see why Citadel might have wanted this. Nowadays your named heroes are the dwarven High King and your narrative is about some massed invasion of a realm rather than a village built in an unfortunate location.
Dunno. At some point I'd love to run on of the 2nd / 3rd edition scenarios using the modern ruleset, if only to see how it "feels", but I'm pretty sure that GW are no longer interested in me any more than I am in them. On the plus side there are plenty of small miniatures companies who do want my business.
Paul / Grumdril
Erny
Member
To be clear I have no problem with GW as it is, I know their minis are great, they just aren't for me. I just couldn't give a stuff about being told quite so much fluff, badly written fluff to boot. When I get sent a mail saying the whole of the old world is changing, again, my immediate reaction is, "no it isn't. Not my old world any way, get stuffed."
My money, my toys, my world. The only people who impact and change that are my gaming buddies.
My money, my toys, my world. The only people who impact and change that are my gaming buddies.
weismonsters
Member
Here is an interesting article from the perspective of commissioned fantasy writers during the 80s and 90s. It was written by Steven Baxter in Vector Magazine some years ago. It is interesting to see how far back the roots of the modern GW philosophy go.
http://www.bsfa.co.uk/www.vectormagazin ... ID=42.html
http://www.bsfa.co.uk/www.vectormagazin ... ID=42.html
Captain Crooks
Member
lenihan":3509fr8x said:
It's okay fella. We'll look after you. If you start to turn i'll do for you real quick and painless. I'd expect you to do the same
dral
Member
To limit your exposure, and in the hope it won't come to that, here's my first impression...
Nagash I
There's a big book (300 pages) and a small one (100 pages). The big one is all stories.
I've only scratched the surface but it's a series of chapters each telling the story of how the upturn of the power of chaos brings trouble to each of the races. Skaven are rising lustria, Nagash's influence is raising the dead. This then leads to war across the world.
Practically, we've got the background for fights all over the old world, and tales of the battles that ensue. These are detailed with the armies present.
Nagash II
In the second book the battles become individual scenarios. The forces are detailed to units. There are different ways to play suggested from re-enacting a battle, or just part of it, to playing a campaign.
The thing that's jumped out to me are that there loads of links to old stuff here. Being a lichemaster fan I'm pleased to see kemler here, with krell. The forces of maisontaal are here too (although no mechanical man yet).
My initial scan is very positive. This does look like huge resource book and puts the narrative firmly at the core of the game.
It's produced brilliantly too, with some amazing art. Pretty much matching the forgeworld standard of late.
Oh and the rules for Nagash are included with the model. So maybe this is the start of getting add-on rules with models removing the need for a new book or download...
Nagash I
There's a big book (300 pages) and a small one (100 pages). The big one is all stories.
I've only scratched the surface but it's a series of chapters each telling the story of how the upturn of the power of chaos brings trouble to each of the races. Skaven are rising lustria, Nagash's influence is raising the dead. This then leads to war across the world.
Practically, we've got the background for fights all over the old world, and tales of the battles that ensue. These are detailed with the armies present.
Nagash II
In the second book the battles become individual scenarios. The forces are detailed to units. There are different ways to play suggested from re-enacting a battle, or just part of it, to playing a campaign.
The thing that's jumped out to me are that there loads of links to old stuff here. Being a lichemaster fan I'm pleased to see kemler here, with krell. The forces of maisontaal are here too (although no mechanical man yet).
My initial scan is very positive. This does look like huge resource book and puts the narrative firmly at the core of the game.
It's produced brilliantly too, with some amazing art. Pretty much matching the forgeworld standard of late.
Oh and the rules for Nagash are included with the model. So maybe this is the start of getting add-on rules with models removing the need for a new book or download...
Coopdevil
Member
I looked through a copy of Nagash today at the FLGS in Birmingham. Opened the scenario book to a random page and it was talking about Heinrich Kemmler at the Battle of La Maisontaal!
That's like Citadel Journal Spring 1986 Old School and Citadel Journal Spring 1986 Obscure!
Coop
That's like Citadel Journal Spring 1986 Old School and Citadel Journal Spring 1986 Obscure!
Coop
Zhu Bajie
Member
[/quote]Grumdril":34xfkt3k said:
GW (london) already had a diversified and home grown range of products - boardgames, Doctor Who, Talisman, Railway Rivals, Battlecars etc. RPGs Golden Heroes, Warhammer, and ZX Spectrum games were part of that strategy of diversification built on importing, distributing and ocasionally reprinting the american RPGs (D&D, MERP, RQ, Traveller).
From a Citadel (Nottingham) perspective, Bryan had had Laserburn rejected by GW (London) - who published Spacefarers instead, and Rick and Hal had published Reaper (fantasy mass combat game) through TTG (who also took up Laserburn). It's pretty obvious that Bryan / Rick / Hal are/were primarily wargamers and roleplayers, wheras Steve & Ian are/were boardgamers and roleplayers. D&D just happened to boom and bring in the most dosh.
Given that Steve and Ian were selling millions of FF gamebooks, it's surprising they didn't bring that inhouse to GW earlier (before green-spine era). Perhaps the WD solo adventures were part of that. Maybe the effort to enter the world of mass-market paperback sales, or perhaps their contracts with Puffin just made it impossible.
It was around 1987 when GW stopped importing other companies products (during 2nd Edition WFB and near the launch of 40k) but GW went on to still reprint Runequest and Stormbringer from Chaosium under license for a while. GW were also exploring doing a paintball, cyberpunk LARP, publishing books and a record label FFS. The creative spirit within the company and need for diversification from a single product stream "Warhammer", but for various reasons these other enterprises didn't take off. What was successful tho was the model Gary Gygax had admired back in the early 80s - a vertically integrated creative, manufacturing, distribution and retail business, supported by periodical publications with new monsters for a core game that fed new miniatures along a regular release schedule, and guess what, that's still what they're doing today, except instead of the Fiend Factory in WD and the Fiend Factory miniatures for D&D, we get Codexes for Warhammer.
ChaosChild
Member
They resurrected La Maisontaal in White Dwarf about 10 years ago, for 6th Edition. So it's never been forgotten. Refought it back then using the monastery model from the Journal.Coopdevil":33t03mob said:I looked through a copy of Nagash today at the FLGS in Birmingham. Opened the scenario book to a random page and it was talking about Heinrich Kemmler at the Battle of La Maisontaal!
That's like Citadel Journal Spring 1986 Old School and Citadel Journal Spring 1986 Obscure!
Coop
Con-fusion
Member
Grumdril":1vcqyt2s said:
My group plays 8th edition at 1500 points with Triumph and Treachery and scenarios originally designed for 3rd edition. Special characters available to each army are limited to the scenarios, and we make our own rules for them. It's really fun, especially when we get 5 or 6 players.
The Fat Git
Member
Con-fusion":3abb8fle said:
Triumph & Treachery is great fun, one of the best things about it is I don't think it's tied to any particular edition of Warhammer.
I have borrowed the nagash book, it's pretty good.
Theatralic
Member
While in somewhere countries the Hardback is out of print ,there will be a Paperback Version later on.
dral
Member
I think it's the game books rather than the novel folk are after.
It's great pair of books and i can thoroughly recommend it as a good read, and a great add on for warhammer. It's not too dissimilar to the scenario packs of second and the third edition. There's a campaign, with set piece battles complete with the forces involved if you want to use them.
It's great pair of books and i can thoroughly recommend it as a good read, and a great add on for warhammer. It's not too dissimilar to the scenario packs of second and the third edition. There's a campaign, with set piece battles complete with the forces involved if you want to use them.
Theatralic
Member
I know, but they are actually repreinting the Campaign Books as Paperbacks due to the High demand.
I agree I love them and haven`t been that excited about a realease (apart from maybe the Dwarf Book) in years.
I agree I love them and haven`t been that excited about a realease (apart from maybe the Dwarf Book) in years.