RIP Warhammer

[dral]

unrelated...


Should I start a new thread for Nagash End of Times?

Not at all unrelated, i'm very excited by this and hopeful that it is a very new (or maybe resurrection of the old) lease of life for WFB. There's been some good development in 40K lately, to my mind GW has actively been pushing the narrative foundation and showing less and less regard for the 'we need to be given balance, and make sure my army is best' tournament scene that seems have dominated the internet culture based gaming since i came back to wargaming. Unbound lists, Sanctus Reach, mission cards, formations etc. have all been breaking the chess with figures monotony for me.

The End Times is very exciting. As a long time undead (not vampire counts or tomb kings) fan this, on top of shifts in 40K, has got me very hopeful for WFB and way i like to play it. I'll be picking up the books full of optimism and sitting down in a quiet place to read this weekend. I've not done that in a long time...

 

[Erny]

To me and I emphasis to me, this is actually the antithesis of Oldhammer. I hate most of the specific background material produced by GW. Keep it general and open ended. If I want all wizards to be able to cast necromantic spells I can say it is so without being told to do it by a company (see I have at least read one of the spam mails they sent me). Equally I can combine whatever elements of undead troops I want into one army. If I want Mummies, vampires even flesh golums, werewolves and zombies in the same army I can. My story, not theirs.

Oh and I much prefer Cocco the clown to the new Nagash model which shows how lowly I think of it.

 

[lenihan]

I'm basically in agreement with Erny about this. My imagination is better than anything GW can come up with. So is yours, I wager... precisely because it's yours.

That said, if it gets more people into fantasy gaming and into the narrative side of things, that's not bad. But I have very limited interest in GW "fluff".

 

[Asslessman]

Please do - I have no idea what that is.

You don't? Well, it's basically the embodiment of why Oldhammer exists and will only get more popular.

To me and I emphasis to me, this is actually the antithesis of Oldhammer. I hate most of the specific background material produced by GW. Keep it general and open ended. If I want all wizards to be able to cast necromantic spells I can say it is so without being told to do it by a company (see I have at least read one of the spam mails they sent me). Equally I can combine whatever elements of undead troops I want into one army. If I want Mummies, vampires even flesh golums, werewolves and zombies in the same army I can. My story, not theirs.

Oh and I much prefer Cocco the clown to the new Nagash model which shows how lowly I think of it.

Exactly, why pay for a book giving you the authorisation to use THAT spell with THIS wizard when you clearly need no other authorisation than that of your GM or opponent? Th eright is ours from teh start. We just ask for a rule set and a couple of stats and thsi is it§ we're good!

@Dral : I sincerely hope you enjoy your read and that the story is well written and everything.

 

[dral]

I know this is uphill challenge here, but where do Oldhammer games come from? I'd suggest that there's a core or rules, stories and background that has always been there. 3rd has it as much as 8th.

I wonder how much of the the material that give me hope you guys have read? I don't read the material as saying 'you are now allowed to...'

Here's a direct quote from 7th 40K

"Warhammer 40,000 may be somewhat different to any other game you have played. Above all, it's important to remember that the rules are just a framework to support an enjoyable game. Whether a battle ends in victory or defeat, your goal should always be to enjoy the journey. What's more warhammer 40,000 calls on a lot from you, the player. Your responsibility isn't just to follow the rules, it's also to add your own ideas, drama and creativity to the game. Much of the appeal of this game lies in the freedom and open-endedness that this allows; it is in this spirit that rules have been written."

Now this isn't what the internet would have you believe, but isn't this just what we are all saying is great about oldhammer? Warhammer still has it, and the new material just give us more resource to drawn on. Campaign book are being released along side novels. This is adding to the stuff to inspire and support the games. We just need to read it with right eyes...

 

[Asslessman]

Humph, not sure I want to feed this but I get your point and I totally agree with rulebooks. I 've always had the nex rulebooks (well not 40k 7th) because ...they're just rules and all they do is let you have a framework to play with friends, on that I totallly adhere to the quote.
What I find annoying is to have the other material (codices and many other add-ons) splitted in many books. It looks like you "unlock" new rules with money now. If the new Nagash thingee is like the sceanrio packs of Old providing models, rules a setting and everything to have a great game then they have my blessing. I 'm no hater really, if on the opposite it's just a mean to take money to "allow people to cast whataver spell they want or take more lords and characters, then I would find that lame. I 'm no making any presumptions, I haven't read any of this. If you read it, enjoy it and tell us it's al lgood, I'll believe you and may give it a read.
the model on the other side... honestly superb ! but terribly not fitting in the way I portray WHFB (still have a strong retro bias) and the 100mm base... well what next?

 

[mbh]

To me and I emphasis to me, this is actually the antithesis of Oldhammer. I hate most of the specific background material produced by GW. Keep it general and open ended. If I want all wizards to be able to cast necromantic spells I can say it is so without being told to do it by a company (see I have at least read one of the spam mails they sent me). Equally I can combine whatever elements of undead troops I want into one army. If I want Mummies, vampires even flesh golums, werewolves and zombies in the same army I can. My story, not theirs.

Oh and I much prefer Cocco the clown to the new Nagash model which shows how lowly I think of it.

well said

I'm always surprised when read about people getting upset at fluff changes GW makes. This End Times is a good example. There is a lot of discussion/complaining on warseer about how GW is changing some of the warhammer story. I really couldn't care less if GW changes something in the fluff. If it's cool I'll use it and if not, I just ignore.

Also, I will be asking the mods to close this thread down if there is any more support of clown Nagash.

 

[mbh]

I know this is uphill challenge here, but where do Oldhammer games come from? I'd suggest that there's a core or rules, stories and background that has always been there. 3rd has it as much as 8th.

I wonder how much of the the material that give me hope you guys have read? I don't read the material as saying 'you are now allowed to...'

Here's a direct quote from 7th 40K

"Warhammer 40,000 may be somewhat different to any other game you have played. Above all, it's important to remember that the rules are just a framework to support an enjoyable game. Whether a battle ends in victory or defeat, your goal should always be to enjoy the journey. What's more warhammer 40,000 calls on a lot from you, the player. Your responsibility isn't just to follow the rules, it's also to add your own ideas, drama and creativity to the game. Much of the appeal of this game lies in the freedom and open-endedness that this allows; it is in this spirit that rules have been written."

Now this isn't what the internet would have you believe, but isn't this just what we are all saying is great about oldhammer? Warhammer still has it, and the new material just give us more resource to drawn on. Campaign book are being released along side novels. This is adding to the stuff to inspire and support the games. We just need to read it with right eyes...

Great point. There is a very similar note in 8th edition. The game designers have said that 8th edition was not intended as a set of rules for tournament play primarily, but rather for casual garage games.

I don't really know the demographics of internet warhammer nerds but I think/hope it's not as one sided as it seems. The tournament players are probably a bit more vocal than the average gamer online. But I don't have any issues with tournament style warhammer. It's not exactly my cup of tea but they have a pretty strong community and they take something different but equally worthwhile from the game. One of my favorite aspects of Warhammer is just how many different ways it can be enjoyed (hobby, tournament, narrative, etc.).

 

[treps]

I know this is uphill challenge here, but where do Oldhammer games come from? I'd suggest that there's a core or rules, stories and background that has always been there. 3rd has it as much as 8th.

I wonder how much of the the material that give me hope you guys have read? I don't read the material as saying 'you are now allowed to...'

Here's a direct quote from 7th 40K

"Warhammer 40,000 may be somewhat different to any other game you have played. Above all, it's important to remember that the rules are just a framework to support an enjoyable game. Whether a battle ends in victory or defeat, your goal should always be to enjoy the journey. What's more warhammer 40,000 calls on a lot from you, the player. Your responsibility isn't just to follow the rules, it's also to add your own ideas, drama and creativity to the game. Much of the appeal of this game lies in the freedom and open-endedness that this allows; it is in this spirit that rules have been written."

Now this isn't what the internet would have you believe, but isn't this just what we are all saying is great about oldhammer? Warhammer still has it, and the new material just give us more resource to drawn on. Campaign book are being released along side novels. This is adding to the stuff to inspire and support the games. We just need to read it with right eyes...

Of course you are right, but it's a reality, in each club I have been, with each group of players I have met, I have encountered people that do believe that the rules as written are the only way it has to be played and that if you do not respect this you are not playing the same game !

I have seen people that doesn't want to play a scenario that was not one of the 6 range battles variant given in the rulebook, I have met people not allowing others to use a miniature not present in the current codex/army book, etc.

The Oldhammer thing is refreshing because it does regroup people that want to play in different ways using the rules as a common language, not WAAC players, not people looking for "balance" or such other non sense, but people that want to have fun playing a game.

So I'll read the new fluff too, but as said by the others I don't need GW to allow me to play skeletons with vampires, or to have a necromancer.

What I may ask GW is to provide me good and simple rules (the 2nd/3rd are ok, there's no need for a new version every 4 year or so), I want them to provide a coherent gaming universe as much that I want to be able to modify it to suit my needs, I want them to make nice miniatures that fit in this universe, and that's all !

I'm not sure that the new fluff will be coherent with the old one, and I'm sure that the look of the new miniatures does not match the look of their old ones, all in all I'm not sure that I really want to continue buying new stuff from them if I do not use it in my games...

 

[Chico]

I hate to feed this this further but GW arn't loosening what you can have in your armies in current editions because they think it would be fun.. but rather to get you too spend more money.. Want 5 Giant robots at £80 a pop in your army .. well now you can! so go buy them and this new book at £35 which gives you the rules.

 

[dral]

I hate to feed this this further but GW arn't loosening what you can have in your armies in current editions because they think it would be fun.. but rather to get you too spend more money.. Want 5 Giant robots at £80 a pop in your army .. well now you can! so go buy them and this new book at £35 which gives you the rules.

But hasn't it always been thus?

Wasn't warhammer largely a product of some guys making D&D figures realising a wargame would sell more?

A desire to sell more doesn't proclude fun ideas, in fact couldn't they be the same?

You aren't forced to buy anything in oldhammer, using 3rd or 8th (although we will). The tournament players are in a different world, and I think much of hate comes from there.

The Oldhammer thing is refreshing because it does regroup people that want to play in different ways using the rules as a common language, not WAAC players, not people looking for "balance" or such other non sense, but people that want to have fun playing a game.

I completely agree with this, I was lost in the warseer and warhammer forum worlds of optimal lists and viable builds. Not the game I used to love playing. Stumbling across Orlygg's blog let me find what I'm sure has always been there, but on the quiet behind the vocal WAAC players.

But trying not to deflect this post, is warhammer dying, or our warhammer dying? I see evidence that GW puts a lot of value where we do in the game and I see more products directed our way. Will they want money for it? yes, but we can take it or leave it. If it's good, and we do spend, more will inevitably follow.

This leaves me with a rosey view.

 

[Count Von Bruno]

They've always stressed that the rules are just there as a guideline and encouraged people to make their own adjustments and additions, I am far from enthusiastic about the modern/current aesthetic and direction of 40K in particular but (present company excluded, of course ) but for all the whinging about this or that sucks or is broken etc etc I think the players need to take more responsibility for the state of their game rather than blaming it all on the Evil Empire.

Nobody's forcing Joe to buy 5 land raiders, 2 baneblades, a thunderhawk and a titan (let alone use them all in the one game) just because there's a formation or whatever that gives you an unlocked special rule- sure GW are going to dangle the carrot ( because people encourage them ) but if Joe and his playing group stopped the arms race and came to an agreement maybe they wouldn't feel the need to stockpile a brand new car's worth of tanks and robots etc to "stay in the game".

Anyway, I'm an outsider but 40K seems incredibly daunting right now- main rules, codex book, supplement, dataslate (whatever that is?) etc etc...god damn.

I know I'm "old school" when I shit my pants at the sight of 5 terminators or a dreadnought or tank

 

[Captain Crooks]

I know I'm "old school" when I shit my pants at the sight of 5 terminators or a dreadnought or tank

Whatever you do, don't go into my garage...

 

[Asslessman]

I know I'm "old school" when I shit my pants at the sight of 5 terminators or a dreadnought or tank

Whatever you do, don't go into my garage...

You don't want him to see that awesome conversion of a Dreadnought driving a tank full of terminators (with a GS dragon at the end of a lead) you did a while back... THAT is the end of times on a tabletop.

 

[Captain Crooks]

I know I'm "old school" when I shit my pants at the sight of 5 terminators or a dreadnought or tank

Whatever you do, don't go into my garage...

You don't want him to see that awesome conversion of a Dreadnought driving a tank full of terminators (with a GS dragon at the end of a lead) you did a while back... THAT is the end of times on a tabletop.

If you keep talking about it, it IS going to happen...

 

[Asslessman]

Just imagine the sheer weigh of such a model :

- One RT dreadnought standing on top of a landraider holding chains to lead a giant dragon while terminators come out of the tank to charge. I'm not sure even a Space wolf termie on a flying sledge pulled by wolves could beat that.

 

[Count Von Bruno]

I misread that as "whatever you do, don't do it in my garage"

 

[Citadel Collector]

Just imagine the sheer weigh of such a model :

- One RT dreadnought standing on top of a landraider holding chains to lead a giant dragon while terminators come out of the tank to charge. I'm not sure even a Space wolf termie on a flying sledge pulled by wolves could beat that.

Easily beaten by a conversion of a terminator driving a tank full of dreadnoughts

(Yes, it would be a large "tank")

 

[Coopdevil]

Wasn't warhammer largely a product of some guys making D&D figures realising a wargame would sell more?

The impetus behind Warhammer was a little bit more than just money making per se. I heard the tale from Steve Jackson at a talk he and Ian Livingstone gave about the history of GW back at UK Games Expo about five years ago. Since hearing that I've been more sympathetic about GW's decision to drop other companies games and it seems to be why the culture of the company developed along the lines it did.

It goes like this;

- Early 1980s, GW are the UK distributor for TSR, the D&D lines are GW's biggest seller by a long way not just in GW shops but from distribution to all the other outlets in the UK that sell it. (Personal anecdote - my first copy of Red Box D&D and the Citadel Adventurers starter set actually came from Boots the Chemist in West Bromwich high street. GW would have delivered both to the Boots group.)

- TSR keep proposing various mergers, buyouts or takeovers of GW in order to get a UK presence, GW keep declining. SJ and IL are personal friends with Gary Gygax but don't get on with the other people at TSR who "look" after them. Many anecdotes about TSR reps from the US were told.

- Failing to acquire GW TSR announce plans to found TSR UK, the company which they locate in Cambridge.

- GW realise that they are dangerously dependent upon one line which they do not ultimately control. If TSR UK is now to handle UK distribution of TSR stuff, GW could be out of business in no time at all. Panic on.

- GW therefore need their own in-house produced game quickly to limit exposure to risk (if TSR went out of business for example). A wargame that covers the Citadel range seems to be the idea. Mainly this could work because instead of selling a few figures from across the ranges to gamers, a wargame legitimises the sale of bulk deals with discounts. I think the latter was Bryan Ansell's realisation.

- GW actually get away with it as they remain TSR distributors after the opening of TSR UK. SJ said that he thinks that TSR's mindset was stuck in a North American mode believing that a vast geographic marketplace requires a hierarchy of distributors, and never realised that they could easily do it themselves in Britain and cut out the middle man.

When you know that I think it's easy to see why GW felt they needed to move away from importing and/or printing under license American RPGs and why Warhammer got pushed so heavily. It wasn't just a profit-making game line it was the only thing protecting them from decisions made elsewhere in their supply chain.

Coop

 

[dral]

Thanks Coop, my brief statement obviously wasn't comprehensive, and most certainly wasn't intended in the negative. Companies need to make money to survive and it's only then can they give us things we want.

I love the things that GW produced in the early years, i felt it changed in the early 90s and for me lost the company run by gamers feel to move to a games made by company. But others think the early 90s was the great time, these thing are all very personal. And who can honestly deny that GW has folk who love gaming and warhammer and is still making some great things now. All through it they have had to make money, as they must continue to do. And i've bought what i wanted and left what i didn't.

My poorly explained point is the need to make money has to be on the top of every company's list of priorities. It's naive to think otherwise. And i don't agree with the common internet assumption that this intrinsically compromises the ability to make good games. Take Unbound and the trotted out internet argument that it's all about selling more models, with the implication that on that basis it should be dismissed. Does the unbound idea put pressure onto players? Can GW do that? Surely only players put pressure on players? If you take responsibility for your gaming this isn't a problem. If it's an idea you and your mates find fun then buy the models, make your own, use cardboard counters, buy the book, write your own rules, whatever, it's your choice. We're not a captive market and it's our game.

(this is all caveated that it may be nonsense in the context of the tournament scene, but that's too new for me to understand...)

p.s. I really do pine for metal figures though...How about a Thunderhawk, driven by a terminator, taking a class of dreadnoughts on a field trip