RIP Warhammer

[Galadrin]

Wow, I am just coming across this all now. To be honest, I am not surprised that GW is going in this discussion. I remember thinking that Warhammer would need to BECOME a skirmish game to compete with all the skirmish games out there (Warmachine, Hordes, Malifaux etc). To be honest, the whole "blocks of individual models neatly arrayed in rows doing delicate wheeling and maneuvering around the battlefield" thing was a hangover from the historical wargaming that originally inspired Warhammer Fantasy. The only games that still do that kind of thing are Napoleonics and DBA and that sort—crunchy games from the historical grognards, and NOT the prime (young!) audience that Games Workshop has had in mind since at least the early 1990's. That Warhammer remained so deeply inspired by historical wargames for so long is actually quite remarkable and odd.

I think there will be a number of Warhammer players going to Kings of War and the last few games that (because they were copying Warhammer) still have the block-unit style gaming. The rest of Warhammer players will probably adapt and keep playing in the new version. Of course, I have zero personal stake in any of that... GW models have looked like barf since about 1998 onwards (you remember... when Orcs stopped grinning and started having a massive underbite?) and their only games worth purchasing were Specialist Games like Mordheim and Battlefleet Gothic. I got off the GW kool-aid a LONG time ago and could care less what they do with their intellectual property. I have my 3rd Edition Warhammer Fantasy hardcover and my 40k 2nd edition box set and enough old lead that it will take me a lifetime to paint it all—I'm one happy duck!

I will say this—I am sure GW also could care less about my opinion, or anyone playing their recent editions for that matter either. They are targeting new, younger players for low yield buy-ins. They are likely going to print the entire ruleset on a single legal sheet of glossy paper and fold it up inside every box set. If they can get 10 kids to buy two boxes then they don't need one old player to buy 20 more, and that is a business model which probably makes a ton of sense. Sometimes, if I am feeling particularly self-destructive, I wander over to Warseer and watch those guys nerd it out over the tiniest game balance or mechanical gripe. GW could never keep that crowd happy about anything—they publish any new book and all they got was scorn from some sullen internet armchair generals. GW will be happy to be rid of them and on to some fresh blood, which is what is good for the hobby anyway. Give 10 kids a couple hours of fun and good childhood memories or vaguely satisfy one grumbly old basement-dweller with a deep wallet, which is better? I'd say the former over the latter, every time.

So this new version is not one I'd ever play (even once, on a lark). It seems aesthetically ridiculous and mechanically facile to me. BUT I am perfectly OK with that—I have a stack of wargames and boardgames that I do enjoy playing tremendously. The game that got me into hobbying way back when was Battlemasters which, in retrospect, was quite a stupid game. But it got me in nonetheless. Hopefully this new Warhammer will do the same for a new generation! And when that young generation peers over at my table set up with Kev Adams Orcs and Jes Goodwin Wood Elves and ask me what the "Cool" stat does, I will be grateful that there won't be a currently extant edition of the title game when I say "come, let me tell you about a little, old game called 'Warhammer Fantasy'..."

Warhammer Fantasy Battle is dead, long live Warhammer Fantasy Battle!

 

[Mr Papafakis]

Well said Galadrin!

You made some insightful comments, most of which I couldn't agree with more.

But....although playing battles of ranked up soldiers is indeed a throwback to an older style of play, it's still most probably the one that got most of us into gaming in the first place. And we must have enjoyed it somewhat, otherwise we wouldn't all be here griping about it's demise? I think for nostalgia's sake, I'd still like to play it again some time.....if I ever get my 30 odd year lead pile painted up into an "army" of some kind

I agree, that army building (the size of which is required for an old school Warhammer battle) is not a business model that's viable with today's generation. They can't be arsed spending oodles of time painting an army (delaying playing the game) when they could fire up a PlayStation equivalent instead and "play" straight away. In my mind it's a more rewarding & lasting experience compared with the instant gratification of digital gaming, but alas, I know that's not a reality for a lot of young people these days.

I'm just waffling now I think

In the end, I've got all the old lead & brilliant oldschool tomes from my youth to last me until the grave. This new iteration of GW's has no bearing on me.

Thanks for the enjoyable read Galadrin, very interesting

 

[stone cold lead]

I agree, that army building (the size of which is required for an old school Warhammer battle) is not a business model that's viable with today's generation. They can't be arsed spending oodles of time painting an army (delaying playing the game) when they could fire up a PlayStation equivalent instead and "play" straight away.

It would make even more sense to go the route of pre-painted plastics as well!

 

[Zhu Bajie]

That is a top post Galadrin, thanks for sharing!

I'm going to pick up on one historical element. WFB only became about mass ranked units later in its lifecycle. It was always capable of supporting it (as AoS is) but look at Bryan Ansells (?) Quest For Chaos scenario for 1E, that was included with SS1 - Warriors of Chaos box set:

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-y23ZOcyIeEA/U ... can083.jpg
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-Ij65w7DRFNU/U ... can084.jpg

That's 10 figures, on a much smaller scale than you'd expect in WFB3, but entirely inline with what AoS is doing. IIRC Rick Priestly has said that initially Warhammer was supposed to have been a freebie rules-set included with miniatures, but grew out of all proportion. AoS might not be my Oldhammer or your Oldhammer, but I'm steadily convincing myself (if nobody else!) that it is GWs Oldhammer.

One also has to wonder about how a business might respond to the todays age of Austerity and the recession of the early 80s and how those might parallel.

And the absolute meltdown in warhammer fandom is strangely fascinating

 

[zoggin-eck]

Hi Galadrin, I won't echo the chorus of "good post" comments, if only because you used the "Kool-aid" line and "could care less" in one sentence.

They are likely going to print the entire ruleset on a single legal sheet of glossy paper and fold it up inside every box set.

Close enough they've done. Rules and unit stats free online and via their app, with printed unit rules included in the box. Still not my ideal game, but I think this is a good move. The price per box is probably still going to be a bit much though, I've always thought selling everything as units of five would make sense.

(Actually, I've already seen the so called "One Page Rules" bloke has already made a single-page (not even a full page!) variant, so perhaps they could print that off and pop it into each box like you mentioned... )

They can't be arsed spending oodles of time painting an army (delaying playing the game) when they could fire up a PlayStation equivalent instead and "play" straight away. In my mind it's a more rewarding & lasting experience compared with the instant gratification of digital gaming, but alas, I know that's not a reality for a lot of young people these days.

I think a better/obvious comparison can be made with the success and ease of access/instant gratification of x-wing (and to a lesser degree the Start Trek and D&D dragon offshoots), "clix" and card games.

The weird thing is, while the kiddies are being accused of needing everything instant, many have pointed out how much preparation and modelling supplies the "starter set" models require. Certainly more than the 7th edition set, for example. Hell, your average army of lead models can just be pushed onto their slotta bases initially.

AoS might not be my Oldhammer or your Oldhammer, but I'm steadily convincing myself (if nobody else!) that it is GWs Oldhammer.

Hey, you're starting to convince me, if that counts.

And the absolute meltdown in warhammer fandom is strangely fascinating

It is, I'll admit, even if I've added to it on other forums! I can get it though. Many people have massive armies lovingly painted who are used to attending tournaments throughout the year and enjoy that side of what WHFB became/can be. If they suddenly feel that this will limit the way they enjoy a hobby, even if it isn't the way I enjoy it, I feel they are allowed at least a little bit of a sook. "Play an old(er) edition" might be fine for me, but it doesn't work all the time.

 

[Erny]

I've never really understood the satement, "I could care less", which surely signifies a level of caring above base level. In the uK we tend to say, "couldn't care less", which places the object of care firmly at the bottom of ones priorities. But I digress. I could actually care less but not a great deal.

The game doesn't actually apear to be rules light thay have just moved the bulk of the rules onto war scrolls. Scrolls that in future you'll be buying with the miniatures that use them. Sounds rather like a collectable miniatures game, beware the release of the first miniatures in sealed foil packets.

Further I think Zhu in all your enthusiasim you've missed one of your cardinal rules for oldhammer. The gaming tool kit aproach. With Oldhammer I can play any game I like, indeed I was playing starwars just the other day with my eldest. With a game with basic rules that are expanded upon by rules released with miniatures and presumably ever increasing levels of complexity how can we ever have a complete tool kit?

Rend abilities, shields that defend via completely different rules mechanisims, all looking a bit pathfinder to me where play is about building up yor buffs and debuffs and getting killer combinations.

 

[Erny]

Many people have massive armies lovingly painted who are used to attending tournaments throughout the year and enjoy that side of what WHFB became/can be. If they suddenly feel that this will limit the way they enjoy a hobby, even if it isn't the way I enjoy it, I feel they are allowed at least a little bit of a sook. "Play an old(er) edition" might be fine for me, but it doesn't work all the time.

Yeah I guess if your gaming years high light was warhammer worlds warhammer fantasy Tournament this is a sad loss. The company has turned round and said that game we used to sell you that you enjoy so much, well we think it's crap now. Here is something very different. I'm not interested in either itteration but I get the upset.

 

[treps]

In fact "Warhammer- AoS" is a new game, a skirmish game, with new resolution systems, complete and playable with the existing miniatures produced by GW the last 10/15 years but this is not "Warhammer The Game of Fantasy Battles".

If people want to play WFB then they have the choice to play any of the 8 iteration produced these last 33 years, if they want to play "AoS" then they can use their miniatures (GW gave them the complete rules for them) and play it too. Of course new miniatures will have some new rules, the new rules will probably kick ass so that the players wants to buy them to replace their old obsolete miniatures (like for any collecting game), but, as of now, where is the problem for gamers wanting to test the rules ?

The only problems I see are the following :
- people believing that they need the last official ruleset to play.
- people believing that they need official miniatures to play.
- people trying to use a set of rules for something it is not (competitive, balanced, etc.).
- People not able to house rules the games they play and needed to play with the Rules As Written.
- etc.

Mentalities are evolving, Wizards of the Coast thought the same than GW, and the 4th edition of D&D (a complete new game with almost nothing from the preceding editions) was such a failure, people turned back to Pathfinder (a revised version of D&D 3.5) and everything tagged OSR has been successful, that they made a 5th one that is an almost full step back to first edition.

Gw is trying the same move, a complete new game, we'll see if it will work better for them than it worked for Wizards or not... But that will not change anything for the oldhammerers who were already using old rules with any miniatures they liked

The people here have already made a step toward all these points and are already using any miniatures they like, with their preferred rules (once official or house made or ...), so the fact that GW gives us a new complete ruleset should not be a problem for the people frequenting this forum. It is free so I add it to my collection of free rulesets, and won't miss the opportunity to test it thoroughly and I reserve the right to like it, fanboy or not

 

[Zhu Bajie]

Further I think Zhu in all your enthusiasim you've missed one of your cardinal rules for oldhammer. The gaming tool kit aproach. With Oldhammer I can play any game I like, indeed I was playing starwars just the other day with my eldest.

Ah, that sounds like fun!

No, i haven't missed it I expressed reservations about having rules tied to miniatures.

At the moment I'm half-way towards thinking of it as a 'sandbox' rather than a 'tool-kit'. It's so trivial to make stuff up using AoS. If I wanted to stat Darth Vader I'd just write it down, job done. It's so loose it hardly needs tools to work it. But the fact that the rules as presented don't encourage me to do that, unlike 1 / 2 / 3, which kind of do (and 8th damns it to obscurity and ridiculous stuff).

As Treps says, it's just another free wargame to choose from. And to be honest, my enthusiasm only goes as far as it seems to have drawn on a lot of Warhammers early history and the attitudes of this community (and not necessarily my own!), which personally I find interesting to explore.

 

[mbh]

I've never really understood the satement, "I could care less", which surely signifies a level of caring above base level. In the uK we tend to say, "couldn't care less", which places the object of care firmly at the bottom of ones priorities. But I digress. I could actually care less but not a great deal.

The game doesn't actually apear to be rules light thay have just moved the bulk of the rules onto war scrolls. Scrolls that in future you'll be buying with the miniatures that use them. Sounds rather like a collectable miniatures game, beware the release of the first miniatures in sealed foil packets.

Further I think Zhu in all your enthusiasim you've missed one of your cardinal rules for oldhammer. The gaming tool kit aproach. With Oldhammer I can play any game I like, indeed I was playing starwars just the other day with my eldest. With a game with basic rules that are expanded upon by rules released with miniatures and presumably ever increasing levels of complexity how can we ever have a complete tool kit?

Rend abilities, shields that defend via completely different rules mechanisims, all looking a bit pathfinder to me where play is about building up yor buffs and debuffs and getting killer combinations.

I couldn't care less is correct but everyone knows what you mean if you say the other version. It's silly nitpicking.



I'm really conflicted about this criticism or observation that the younger generation can't deal with painting an entire army. The number of fully painted armies I see on the net and in person makes me kinda doubt this. The quality and quantity is so much higher than back in the late 80s early 90s. Obviously these may not be from the generation being referenced but it's got to be close.

But I'm not sure I can even justify the time it takes to paint a full army to a nice standard. There are a lot more productive, meaningful things one could be doing with that time.

 

[cdwalkley]

I'm really conflicted about this criticism or observation that the younger generation can't deal with painting an entire army. The number of fully painted armies I see on the net and in person makes me kinda doubt this. The quality and quantity is so much higher than back in the late 80s early 90s. Obviously these may not be from the generation being referenced but it's got to be close.

If we are taking about GW figures then I have to confess that I certainly can't deal with painting an entire army! The sheer amount of detail (much of it superfluous in my opinion) led me to decide between either ignoring it and painting the figure in a way I'd be disappointed with, or not buying any more! That's why my Skaven from the Island of Blood never got finished and will no doubt end up on eBay soon. Give me older models any day.

When I see youngsters playing with unpainted GW figures, I do kind of get why...

 

[mbh]

Part of me wonders what I could have done with all that extra time and money over the years.


Maybe a phd.

 

[Scalene]

My thoughts on AoS are:
1. I haven't played anything newer than 3rd edition ever.
2. I don't like the model styling - it's too pumped, too super-hero, but so was their previous stuff, so no change there.
3. I prefer the idea of Games Workshop existing than not existing, but I don't buy their current products and I don't know anyone that does.
It's an interesting development, but this really doesn't affect me.

I like the idea of
- More emphasis on scenarios
- Quicker play (WFB is a bit clunky)
- A style of play that isn't tournament/the mechanical collision of two armies
- A skirmish game as an alternative to WFB

I don't like
- The po-faced apocalypse based hyperbole. I liked WFRP where your character could be a rat catcher.
- The hints of collectible limited edition stuff with its own rules. It feels as though they are going to release successions of must-have super units as a way of unlocking weak people's wallets. I have every sympathy with their commercial motivation, but as a consumer that's the exact opposite of what I want to see.
- I'm confused by the lack of points values in the ruleset as described, but maybe if I bothered to play it, that would make more sense.

This reminds me of a couple of things:

The schism in the DBA community when 3.0 came out and most players either went down the official path of 3.0 or carried on playing 2.2 often with an unofficial clarification known as 2.2+. For a flavour of that see http://www.fanaticus.org/discussion/showthread.php?t=16775&page=3, where the topic "Road move for no PIPs" repeatedly generates into abuse. Radical change in a ruleset that players have invested much time and effort in makes emotions run high.

The situation faced by the Lego company as documented in "Brick by brick" http://www.amazon.co.uk/Brick-Rewrote-Innovation-Conquered-Industry/dp/1847941176, when it clawed its way back from almost going bust to the world's most successful toy company. It did that by both focusing on what its core brand was, and at the same time stamping out unprofitable products and processes. They also started deliberately playing to more than one audience simultaneously - the adult collector of very expensive and intricate models, as well as the 10 year old spending pocket money. Lego had been completely ignoring adult consumers (sound familiar) both in terms of creating kits that appealed to them and in that it kept its design team totally isolated from its fanbase. They realised that although adult Lego fans were rarer, they bought far more (from memory it was 20 times per head more than a child Lego fan), were more long term, and fed much more into the community in the way of ideas, innovation and inspiring models. Part of their path back to profit was to connect with this community, to make it feel more appreciated and to tap into the ideas and expertise that enthusiasts were pouring into their hobby.

Lego created ranges which were compatible and segued from one to another, but where one extreme had a very different character and emphasis from the other extreme. To me, that's what GW is lacking. They have remorselessly pruned out the unprofitable and distracting product lines, but I think they could have maintained a tournament product for acquisitive rules lawyers at the same time as a variant or sister-game that was aimed at kids having a quick knock-about game. Part of the vibrancy of what was for me the GW golden age (say WD 85 - 125) was the combination of board games, wargames, RPGs - a constant stream of new products and innovation. An article about medieval politics sat next to some extra cards for the latest board game. You could pick and choose what you liked, and there was always something new to catch the imagination. I imagine GW are paranoid about market share decline, and believe that the only way to be the dominant system is to put all their eggs in one basket - but that's a defensive (defeatist?) strategy.

 

[Mr Papafakis]

Scalene for president

That's a lot more succinct & to the point than I'll ever be....seriously! I wholeheartedly agree with all of your observations Scalene.

Now onto my waffling observations

One thing I don't understand is why GW decided to go down the path of tournament play, to the exclusion of skirmish/narrative style of gaming? I get that it sold them more minis, I get that. But surely it wouldn't have cost them a whole lot more to come out with a couple of scenario packs each year? It was like they saw it as an either/or option, instead of a both in tandem arrangement. This would have kept both interested parties happy, engaged & dedicated to the company. Opportunity lost IMO.

Regarding Lego, I used to play with that stuff all the time as a kid. I spent most of my childhood building stuff with it & l loved it to bits! But about ten years ago (while shopping for kid presents) l noticed that the Lego that was on the shelf was nothing more than a plastic toy that needed only a few steps to assemble. It stopped being a toy of your imagination & had become a model kit. To their credit, they realised their folly & went back to their roots.

Anyway, enough about Lego , this is supposed to be a serious conversation about wargaming

 

[mbh]

Scalene for president

That's a lot more succinct & to the point than I'll ever be....seriously! I wholeheartedly agree with all of your observations Scalene.

Now onto my waffling observations

One thing I don't understand is why GW decided to go down the path of tournament play, to the exclusion of skirmish/narrative style of gaming? I get that it sold them more minis, I get that. But surely it wouldn't have cost them a whole lot more to come out with a couple of scenario packs each year? It was like they saw it as an either/or option, instead of a both in tandem arrangement. This would have kept both interested parties happy, engaged & dedicated to the company. Opportunity lost IMO.

did they?

The end times books actually had "narrative scenarios". Multiples.

Blood in the badlands was also way more oldhammer.

I think the community made it more of a tournament game. 8th edition can absolutely be used for narrative games if tats what you want. I think we sometimes underestimate how many players just enjoy tournament gaming.

 

[billyfish]

Tournament gaming is big business and is certainly one of the reasons Privateer is doing so well. Their community support is amazing and the game is made to fit well with a tournament environment.

GW have chosen to distance themselves from the tournament scene and the effects were huge in the adult market (the exodus of warhammer tournament players to warmachine/hordes was huge in 2011/2012 in the US)

 

[Mr Papafakis]

did they?

The end times books actually had "narrative scenarios". Multiples.

Blood in the badlands was also way more oldhammer.

I think the community made it more of a tournament game. 8th edition can absolutely be used for narrative games if tats what you want. I think we sometimes underestimate how many players just enjoy tournament gaming.

Maybe they did.....eventually. I stopped paying attention to what they released shortly after I stopped liking their new found business strategies, around the early 90's. Once GW decided to move away from "suggested for mature readers" into "let's target the kiddies market" they had lost me.

Back in the day, scenario packs seemed like they were a very important part of the game, released very often & from what I heard, the later stuff was released very sporadically, lazily copied from one of the the older versions or a rather uninspiring & simplistic "line'em up knock'em down" kinda thing.

Anyway, I'm happy stuck back in the RT, ROC, WFB 3rd, WFRP 1st day's. Firmly entrenched in my blissful ignorance

 

[mbh]

Tournament gaming is big business and is certainly one of the reasons Privateer is doing so well. Their community support is amazing and the game is made to fit well with a tournament environment.

GW have chosen to distance themselves from the tournament scene and the effects were huge in the adult market (the exodus of warhammer tournament players to warmachine/hordes was huge in 2011/2012 in the US)

I have to think that price was a bigger factor in pushing customers out. The cost of a 30 strong unit of witch elves was a kick in the nuts.

40k seems to be doing very well and that's not a tournament game anymore than fantasy.

 

[mbh]

did they?

The end times books actually had "narrative scenarios". Multiples.

Blood in the badlands was also way more oldhammer.

I think the community made it more of a tournament game. 8th edition can absolutely be used for narrative games if tats what you want. I think we sometimes underestimate how many players just enjoy tournament gaming.

Maybe they did.....eventually. I stopped paying attention to what they released shortly after I stopped liking their new found business strategies, around the early 90's. Once GW decided to move away from "suggested for mature readers" into "let's target the kiddies market" they had lost me.

Back in the day, scenario packs seemed like they were a very important part of the game, released very often & from what I heard, the later stuff was released very sporadically, lazily copied from one of the the older versions or a rather uninspiring & simplistic "line'em up knock'em down" kinda thing.

Anyway, I'm happy stuck back in the RT, ROC, WFB 3rd, WFRP 1st day's. Firmly entrenched in my blissful ignorance

GW has made a lot of boneheaded decisions but I really don't personally believe that they ruined WH by turning it into a tournament game. They did a lot of other dumb crap to destroy it though

Sometimes I wish I could force everyone on this forum to give 8th edition an honest try. It won't work for everyone and it's definitely not perfect but there's a lot of good that gets glossed over.

 

[Mr Papafakis]

Burnt bridge's & all that