RIP Warhammer
- Thread starter mbh
- Start date
Zhu Bajie
Member
mbh":2um6donw said:
Agreed. It's a bit more like 1st or 2nd than 3rd, which already started to get heavily codified. It might be just because it's new but it feels a lot more loose and unrestrivive. It's not so much the lack of army books, it's the focus away from min-maxing army-lists and towards narrative. It seems much more Oldhammer in spirit than 8th.
Also, the miniatures are totally 80's. Maybe not GW 80s, but when I see this:
I think of this...
with a bit of this...
The play-acting stuff is just odd tho'. It's like the heard about this "role-playing" thing and got the wrong end of the sitck. Or maybe like one of the over-the-top Paranoia sessions run at Games Day in the 80s. Not my cup of tea, but I expect they are going for 10 year olds. Which makes Bugmans drinking a bit worrying!
Mr Papafakis
Member
Just stumbled across this guys (Jossy) blog post about comparing AoS to the card game MtG. I think he makes some pretty convincing arguments to support his theory.
http://plastickrak.blogspot.com.au/2015/07/a-closer-look-at-aos.html
More grist for the debate
http://plastickrak.blogspot.com.au/2015/07/a-closer-look-at-aos.html
More grist for the debate
mbh
Member
maybe but magic cards have a point cost (in a way).
I personally believe we will see a more complex rule book and army building/point system. At the very last, i expect to see scenarios that will guide the selection process. I could be wrong of course.
The idea of moving out old models/units for the new more powerful stuff does already happen. It happens all the time in 8th edition. I don't agree that we will see new superpower units being released and then discontinued. New stuff may have a more limited run but I still believe it will be available in some way. Again, I could be and probably am wrong
I personally believe we will see a more complex rule book and army building/point system. At the very last, i expect to see scenarios that will guide the selection process. I could be wrong of course.
The idea of moving out old models/units for the new more powerful stuff does already happen. It happens all the time in 8th edition. I don't agree that we will see new superpower units being released and then discontinued. New stuff may have a more limited run but I still believe it will be available in some way. Again, I could be and probably am wrong
mbh
Member
http://natfka.blogspot.com/2015/07/aos- ... paign.html
seems like they will be pushing narrative campaigns ifthe rumors are to be believed
seems like they will be pushing narrative campaigns ifthe rumors are to be believed
Fimm McCool
Member
Three things bother me about AoS.
The first is the elimination of the tables that have been central to Warhammer since its inception, namely the comparison between Weapon Skills and Toughness/Strength. These have always been core to the system that is Warhammer, whether the core game, Mordheim, AHQ or Warhammer Quest. They allow for a lot of customisation and prevent units being uniformly powerful or weak. To scrap them and still call the system Warhammer seems odd.
The second is that there's no Warhammer World any more. My interest with games always starts with the world and to me the best games are designed to fit the feel of the 'fluff', not the other way around. It was the blend of Tolkien and Lovecraft in 3rd edition and the Realm of Chaos books which really first inspired me to play Warhammer and whilst the world has been slowly changing and growing over the editions it was always inventing new stories about the less explored parts of that world, set within the detailed framework provided by Games Workshop, which kept me there. Without the world it just isn't Warhammer.
So whilst it may or may not be a good game, the spirit of it may or may not be 'Oldhammer' friendly and the new fluff may or may not be be every bit as engaging, it feels like more than an evolution or experiment, it feels like a scrapping of everything that made Warhammer Warhammer.
The third thing is that they're now using the term 'Mortal Realms'. A year ago I released my own fantasy world and the action is set in... the Mortal Realm. Damnit GW! Get out of my head!!!! They're always nicking my ideas those guys.
The first is the elimination of the tables that have been central to Warhammer since its inception, namely the comparison between Weapon Skills and Toughness/Strength. These have always been core to the system that is Warhammer, whether the core game, Mordheim, AHQ or Warhammer Quest. They allow for a lot of customisation and prevent units being uniformly powerful or weak. To scrap them and still call the system Warhammer seems odd.
The second is that there's no Warhammer World any more. My interest with games always starts with the world and to me the best games are designed to fit the feel of the 'fluff', not the other way around. It was the blend of Tolkien and Lovecraft in 3rd edition and the Realm of Chaos books which really first inspired me to play Warhammer and whilst the world has been slowly changing and growing over the editions it was always inventing new stories about the less explored parts of that world, set within the detailed framework provided by Games Workshop, which kept me there. Without the world it just isn't Warhammer.
So whilst it may or may not be a good game, the spirit of it may or may not be 'Oldhammer' friendly and the new fluff may or may not be be every bit as engaging, it feels like more than an evolution or experiment, it feels like a scrapping of everything that made Warhammer Warhammer.
The third thing is that they're now using the term 'Mortal Realms'. A year ago I released my own fantasy world and the action is set in... the Mortal Realm. Damnit GW! Get out of my head!!!! They're always nicking my ideas those guys.
jon_1066
Member
Personally it appears to be a little too far simplified but not quite enough if that makes sense. Why have separate to hit and to wound rolls if the comparison aspects are gone? That is just dice throwing for the sake of it. Hits and saves is enough to give you the variance and would speed up the game further.
The obvious balance mechanic is for one player to select the warscrolls and figures available for both sides and the other player to pick which side they want to play. The old I cut you choose method of divvying up the last piece of cake.
As for releasing the rules and warscrolls for free I say bravo and may be tempted to give it a go with some of my existing collection. A brand new game that doesn't cost me a penny. What's to lose?
The obvious balance mechanic is for one player to select the warscrolls and figures available for both sides and the other player to pick which side they want to play. The old I cut you choose method of divvying up the last piece of cake.
As for releasing the rules and warscrolls for free I say bravo and may be tempted to give it a go with some of my existing collection. A brand new game that doesn't cost me a penny. What's to lose?
mbh
Member
It's pretty strange. Some parts are definitely simplified, yet there are 21 different types of shields.
Ancestor Shield / Ancient Shield / Darkwood Shield / Imperial Shield - Improves save by 1
Bloodshield / Crypt Shield - Improves save by 1 against attacks with Rend '-'
Bone Shield / Boss Shield / Enchanted Shield / Git Shield / Kindred Shield / Royal Tomb Shield / Tyrant Shield - Re-roll failed saves
Brass-clad shield / Runemarked Shield / Soulbound shield - Ignores wounds and mortal wounds caused by spells on a 4+
Beastbucklers / Beastshield / Brayshield / Bullshield / Half-shield / Horsemen's Shield / Necropolis Shield - Improves save by 1 in the Combat phase
Chaos Runeshield - Ignores mortal wounds on a 5+
Clanshield / Scavenged Shield - Improves save by 1 against attacks with Damage 1.
Crude Shield / Tusker Shield / Waaagh! Shield - Re-roll failed saves in the combat phase
Darkshield - Re-roll save rolls of 1 (1 and 2 in the Combat phase)
Drake Shield / Elven Shield - Re-roll save rolls of 1 (1 and 2 in the Shooting phase)
Ducal Shield - Re-roll save rolls of 1 in the combat phase if the model charged that turn
Dwarf Buckler / Dwarf Shield / Gromril Shield - If unit does not run / charge, can re-roll failed saves in the combat phase until next Movement phase
Forest Gobbo Shield / Raidin' Shield - Improves save by 1 if the unit has 5+ models
Glade Shield - Re-roll save rolls of 1 (1 and 2 if the unit is in cover)
Gobbo Shield / Moon Shield - Increases save from 6+ tp 5+ if the unit has 10+ models
Grail Shield / Heraldic Shield / Wooden Shield - Improves save by 1 in the combat phase if the model charged this turn
Paladin's Shield / Tower Shield - Improves save by 1 as long as the model did not charge this turn
Pilgrim Shield - Re-roll save rolls of 1 (1 and 2 if the unit has a Grail Reliquae)
Shield - Re-roll save rolls of 1
Star-buckler / Stardrake Shield - Only Rend values of -2 or better have any effect
Tomb Shield - If unit does not run / charge, improves saves in the combat phase by 1 until next Movement phase
Ancestor Shield / Ancient Shield / Darkwood Shield / Imperial Shield - Improves save by 1
Bloodshield / Crypt Shield - Improves save by 1 against attacks with Rend '-'
Bone Shield / Boss Shield / Enchanted Shield / Git Shield / Kindred Shield / Royal Tomb Shield / Tyrant Shield - Re-roll failed saves
Brass-clad shield / Runemarked Shield / Soulbound shield - Ignores wounds and mortal wounds caused by spells on a 4+
Beastbucklers / Beastshield / Brayshield / Bullshield / Half-shield / Horsemen's Shield / Necropolis Shield - Improves save by 1 in the Combat phase
Chaos Runeshield - Ignores mortal wounds on a 5+
Clanshield / Scavenged Shield - Improves save by 1 against attacks with Damage 1.
Crude Shield / Tusker Shield / Waaagh! Shield - Re-roll failed saves in the combat phase
Darkshield - Re-roll save rolls of 1 (1 and 2 in the Combat phase)
Drake Shield / Elven Shield - Re-roll save rolls of 1 (1 and 2 in the Shooting phase)
Ducal Shield - Re-roll save rolls of 1 in the combat phase if the model charged that turn
Dwarf Buckler / Dwarf Shield / Gromril Shield - If unit does not run / charge, can re-roll failed saves in the combat phase until next Movement phase
Forest Gobbo Shield / Raidin' Shield - Improves save by 1 if the unit has 5+ models
Glade Shield - Re-roll save rolls of 1 (1 and 2 if the unit is in cover)
Gobbo Shield / Moon Shield - Increases save from 6+ tp 5+ if the unit has 10+ models
Grail Shield / Heraldic Shield / Wooden Shield - Improves save by 1 in the combat phase if the model charged this turn
Paladin's Shield / Tower Shield - Improves save by 1 as long as the model did not charge this turn
Pilgrim Shield - Re-roll save rolls of 1 (1 and 2 if the unit has a Grail Reliquae)
Shield - Re-roll save rolls of 1
Star-buckler / Stardrake Shield - Only Rend values of -2 or better have any effect
Tomb Shield - If unit does not run / charge, improves saves in the combat phase by 1 until next Movement phase
Grumdril
Member
Fimm McCool":28ba9p55 said:
I'm not fussed about the tables personally. It was a distinctive mechanic, and also gave you the ability to "make your own" (e.g. elites, or whatever) with a reasonable degree of granularity. But I've also heard opinions of it being slow and obsolete mechanically.
I'm sort of with you with the Warhammer World. To my mind part of the joy of GW's plundering of our own history is the instant recognition, and also an interesting gateway into actually learning stuff. Equally important to me is that you had the baselines and the handles to do your own thing - you could easily do a Middle Earth, Young Kingdoms or whatever battle on the same engine and a lot of the same figures (as long as you weren't too fussed about the colour of your orcs).
That second bit they've definitively done away with, or so it seems. From a defence of IP point of view you can see why they'd do that, but it seems they're now playing in the same space as Warmahordes (with the great advantage of their size and recognition) while turning their back on "so you want a pseudo-historical battle with mythical elements". It'll be interesting to see what becomes of that niche - I'm guessing there's space there for companies to make money, just as there are companies presumably making money from Dark Ages, etc., but not companies of GW's size.
jon_1066":28ba9p55 said:
You're right, but it doesn't really work without either a GM or some sort of figure pool - person A will have painted army N and will want to play with that one.
I've seen comments around the interweb saluting the end of PVs, but to my mind something like it will be back. Narrative campaigns are great, but you need some basis for the GM to compare the sides, whether they're aiming for balanced or one-sided, without having to run the scenario twice! To my mind the problem wasn't PVs, it was the focus on optimising in the selection step, where no system would be unbreakable.
Still - interesting times. I'm going to try Forenrond's Last Stand with these new rules, and see what happens.
Paul / Grumdril
Zhu Bajie
Member
mbh":255fqxo5 said:
More Oldhammer. I think the earliest of Bryan Ansells for OD&D (or maybe Arcane Ramblings?) were rules for a magical shields, including one that worked exactly like the one Captain America uses, as well as bindng demons to them - all those grimacing faces on the pre-slotta chaos were actually bound demons. I was always suprised RoC didn't have more daemon-shield special rules.
stone cold lead
Member
How long until we split into two distinct groups of WFB 1st/2nd/3rd edition Oldhammerers and AoS Oldhammerers?
Deathjester25
Member
I was really excited when the rumors came out about WFB going to round bases and skirmish style play. I've always wanted a game that was similar to saga or lotr sbg with Warhammer armies. After reading the rules I'm not sure if AoS is what I was looking for. I guess I'll still give it a try at some point.
treps
Member
I did read the rules, played one game and will play another one shortly. IMHO the rules are nice for skirmish narrative games and could become one of my favorite ruleset, simple enough but open to complexity if desired. I'm impatient to see what they will produce to support the game in term of scenarios but, the 4 pages and the warscrolls are an almost complete toolbox to begin playing right away (the magic may need some work but nothing insurmontable). Of course il will require a GM, but I always game with one, so it's not something new for me.
If I want to play mass battles I have 2nd and 3rd edition (and was only playing them) so no big changes for me.
I really don't like the new miniatures but this is not very important, I was not buying GW miniatures anymore (the last one was the arachnarok 5 years ago or so) as the new artistic direction has no appeal to me, but I have more than I need on my mountain lead and I'm still completing the old ranges I'd like so no big changes here either. I have miniatures on square, round and hex bases so no changes for me, and in the same vein what they did to the world is not a big deal as I'm already playing in my own universe.
If I want to play mass battles I have 2nd and 3rd edition (and was only playing them) so no big changes for me.
I really don't like the new miniatures but this is not very important, I was not buying GW miniatures anymore (the last one was the arachnarok 5 years ago or so) as the new artistic direction has no appeal to me, but I have more than I need on my mountain lead and I'm still completing the old ranges I'd like so no big changes here either. I have miniatures on square, round and hex bases so no changes for me, and in the same vein what they did to the world is not a big deal as I'm already playing in my own universe.
Asslessman
Member
Pretty much the same as Treps (unless I have yet to play a game of it), it's just another convenient tool in the tool box and there always will be the odd model or 2 once in a while that might have its use so yeah, no big change from here either.
billyfish
Member
I haven't played Warhammer 8th since it was released and have zero interest in playing AoS. I think this will see the largest exodus of veterans and an in-flux of younger players. Mainly for the accessibility of the system and the huge overblown models/rules with little structure. Being on this forum means we are all of a different wargaming era based on more realism/rpg elements and the cinematic scope of it all. This is a big a release for them, one that will make or break the entire fantasy line there. Skirmish games are widely available with far better rule sets and more supportive companies, so I don't hold out hope.