Thantsants
Member
To be honest, I reckon the main problem will be fitting all our minis on the table what with the number of Mighty Fortress sets and fortified farm steads we've got to play with 
BOYL The Engines of Avalone Siege game
- Thread starter Thantsants
- Start date
lenihan
Moderator
There has to be some happy compromise between the joy of "stick it all on the table", and some kind of planning of how the different scenarios are going to work - while keeping the element of surprise. I suggest the following:
- Team discussions (attackers and defenders) where we share what we're planning on bringing with all our other teammates (but not with the other side, thus keeping some element of surprise)
- Each team is then given a briefing for each scenario with some non-prescriptive suggestions about how to approach it (e.g. "use your faster moving troops"). We discuss within the team how best we feel that we should plan the use of our forces to meet the requirements of that particular scenario.
- When we get to the Foundry, each side reveals their forces, and all hell is let loose.
- Team discussions (attackers and defenders) where we share what we're planning on bringing with all our other teammates (but not with the other side, thus keeping some element of surprise)
- Each team is then given a briefing for each scenario with some non-prescriptive suggestions about how to approach it (e.g. "use your faster moving troops"). We discuss within the team how best we feel that we should plan the use of our forces to meet the requirements of that particular scenario.
- When we get to the Foundry, each side reveals their forces, and all hell is let loose.
Erny
Member
well as I'm planning on bringing stuff for both sides and will decide on the day which side needs the extra comander to help out I wouldn't know which team.
My thoughts on this is we shoudl tr5y to keep the ratio 2:1 but not worry too much about points so we can accomodate whoever turns up, I'll bring all my, "good/law" stuff so it can be used to balance out any extra evil that tiurns up.
My thoughts on this is we shoudl tr5y to keep the ratio 2:1 but not worry too much about points so we can accomodate whoever turns up, I'll bring all my, "good/law" stuff so it can be used to balance out any extra evil that tiurns up.
lenihan
Moderator
Erny":gtgr7b0v said:
Could also be interesting to have neutrals/mercenaries of questionable allegiance... depending on how things are turning out, you could either control them yourself as part of the attacking force, or they could change hands and fight under the banner of the defenders. Indeed, they could even switch sides during the game for added confusion
Harry
Moderator
I wasn't being 100% serious earlier.
Whilst one crucial element of Oldhammeryness is just getting all you toys on the table and having at it .... another crucial element of Oldhammeryness is the GM.
He/She is there to ensure some level of balance and challenge and fun for all involved.
I imagine it will work a bit like.....
A player: "Well, I have got these guys".
Thantsants: "Eeee thats grand as a butty. They can start anywhere on this table edge. Their job is to try and break through the enemy lines to get to that settlement to bolster the defence. They need to hold until relieved. If no relief comes they will have to try make it back to the Castle with as many of the villagers as possible".
A another player: I have these guys.
Thansants: Eeee thats grand as owt. OK you can't get that lot all on the table right now but you can take any three units and start anywhere over here and you need to try to sack that village. Leave none alive!
As soon as we get some more good guys on the table we will get the rest of your stuff into the action.
Whilst one crucial element of Oldhammeryness is just getting all you toys on the table and having at it .... another crucial element of Oldhammeryness is the GM.
He/She is there to ensure some level of balance and challenge and fun for all involved.
I imagine it will work a bit like.....
A player: "Well, I have got these guys".
Thantsants: "Eeee thats grand as a butty. They can start anywhere on this table edge. Their job is to try and break through the enemy lines to get to that settlement to bolster the defence. They need to hold until relieved. If no relief comes they will have to try make it back to the Castle with as many of the villagers as possible".
A another player: I have these guys.
Thansants: Eeee thats grand as owt. OK you can't get that lot all on the table right now but you can take any three units and start anywhere over here and you need to try to sack that village. Leave none alive!
As soon as we get some more good guys on the table we will get the rest of your stuff into the action.
Thantsants
Member
Hey Harry that impression of me was uncanny!
Reet grand indeed - and it is how I envisage things progressing.
Hope you all don't mind if Erny and me push a few minis around as well as GMing - those Orcs won't besiege the city by themselves!
Reet grand indeed - and it is how I envisage things progressing.
Hope you all don't mind if Erny and me push a few minis around as well as GMing - those Orcs won't besiege the city by themselves!
weazil
Moderator
HI all
I love the sound of how this is developing, but I thought I'd just add a word of caution.
As we all know, 3rd edition isn't the fastest gun in the west. Siege, if one were to continue with the metaphor, isn't the fastest gun in the milky way.
I can see there is a lot of interest in this, but I wonder if a way to 'spread' the forces is to actually have standard (well, not siege, at any rate) 3rd edition games on separate tables that affect the progress of the siege? You could, for instance, have some of these farmsteads (or your remote artillery positions) on different tables, have standard fights over them, with the victors moving on to the main tables or at least affecting that flow. You could still use your team thinking to direct activities on the supporting tables, but it means that the various players might have more time to play and could get involved in other things.
I realise that Padre's game last year had three-way combat and the sides started very far apart, but its still a good example of how long a 'large' game can take. Looking at the ambitions here, they all sound very exciting, but I'm not sure you'll hit a conclusive outcome (or even turn 3, for that matter) at the rate things are going.
Anyway, just a thought.
I love the sound of how this is developing, but I thought I'd just add a word of caution.
As we all know, 3rd edition isn't the fastest gun in the west. Siege, if one were to continue with the metaphor, isn't the fastest gun in the milky way.
I can see there is a lot of interest in this, but I wonder if a way to 'spread' the forces is to actually have standard (well, not siege, at any rate) 3rd edition games on separate tables that affect the progress of the siege? You could, for instance, have some of these farmsteads (or your remote artillery positions) on different tables, have standard fights over them, with the victors moving on to the main tables or at least affecting that flow. You could still use your team thinking to direct activities on the supporting tables, but it means that the various players might have more time to play and could get involved in other things.
I realise that Padre's game last year had three-way combat and the sides started very far apart, but its still a good example of how long a 'large' game can take. Looking at the ambitions here, they all sound very exciting, but I'm not sure you'll hit a conclusive outcome (or even turn 3, for that matter) at the rate things are going.
Anyway, just a thought.
Thantsants
Member
Cheers Gaj - the thought has crossed our minds!
I'm liking the sound of Erny's three scenarios which will give both sides limited objectives for each day's gaming. During each of those scenarios myself and Erny (I'm assuming you're wanting to co-GM with me?) will be marshalling each player's forces and giving them options to pursue in their bit of the table so hopefully everyone will have something to do.
It will be a slimmed down version of Siege - I think we'd agreed to drop the strategic phase and instead add in various effects and modifiers for whichever side controls the various farm steads, coppices, etc.
Don't know what folk think about adding in a Space Hulk style time limit for the movement phase each turn? I'd also suggest everyone brings along playing aids like movement trays, counters for marking march moves, routs and other psychological effects and roster sheets with the stats for all their troop types for quick reference.
Personally I'm quite looking forward to the spectacle of the thing on one big table and I reckon we can manage it so it all ticks along somewhere slightly above snail's pace!
Of course I'm open to suggestions and will go with whatever you chaps feel you will get the most out of
I'm liking the sound of Erny's three scenarios which will give both sides limited objectives for each day's gaming. During each of those scenarios myself and Erny (I'm assuming you're wanting to co-GM with me?) will be marshalling each player's forces and giving them options to pursue in their bit of the table so hopefully everyone will have something to do.
It will be a slimmed down version of Siege - I think we'd agreed to drop the strategic phase and instead add in various effects and modifiers for whichever side controls the various farm steads, coppices, etc.
Don't know what folk think about adding in a Space Hulk style time limit for the movement phase each turn? I'd also suggest everyone brings along playing aids like movement trays, counters for marking march moves, routs and other psychological effects and roster sheets with the stats for all their troop types for quick reference.
Personally I'm quite looking forward to the spectacle of the thing on one big table and I reckon we can manage it so it all ticks along somewhere slightly above snail's pace!
Of course I'm open to suggestions and will go with whatever you chaps feel you will get the most out of
Harry
Moderator
With the rumble in the jungle the only problem (and it was still a good game) was we didn't have deployment zones. Our minis were brought on in a column from a corner. so from word 'go' we were getting under our own feet. Even a 12 inch deployment zone in the corner would have allowed us to put everything on the table and start moving forward. In the games I have played since I have found deep deployment zones allow you to get on with the action.
The other thought I have had about this game is that .... most of the good guys will be deployed in 'zones' around features in the middle of the table ... so they will not have to move far! Once they have taken up their defensive positions many will not move at all ... many will just be waiting to shoot at or get hit by a wave of green. So only one side is doing lots of moving. That will save a bit of time
Finally if you think how Pauls pyramid game went .... Orlygg and the guy he was playing (sorry can't remember your name but do remember your lovely undead minis) fought their little battle at that end of the table completely out of sink with the rest of us. It didn't even matter when Orlygg sent one unit in my direction .... I think we were on turn six and they were on turn eight .... but it just didn't matter.
It just needs a bit of a relaxed attitude. Folks need to be happy if someone starts moving their masses of green minis at one end of the table whilst two guys finish rolling the dice for the last combat at the other end of the table, etc.
Also the relaxed atmosphere (snail like pace
) in both games allowed me time to nip off and look at other games, chat to folks, get a brew, a bacon butty, buy some minis from the Foundry, drink beer, take photographs, drool over other folks minis.
So .... my sugestions are:
Deep deployment zones.
If nothing is going to happen ask the GM if you can move and reserve move at the same time.
If you have lots of men to move and nothing is going to happen ask the GM if you can crack on and move your men for the next turn whist others mop up the last turn.
If you find yourself in a battle that really does not seem to be affected by or affecting anything else that is going on ask the GM if you can just crack on at your own pace.
Finally ... and most importantly ... Everyone relax into the Oldhammery pace of life. The world has got itself in a great big hurry. Have a weekend off. Make the most of any gaps in the action to make some new friends and immerse yourself in Oldhammery goodness.
The other thought I have had about this game is that .... most of the good guys will be deployed in 'zones' around features in the middle of the table ... so they will not have to move far! Once they have taken up their defensive positions many will not move at all ... many will just be waiting to shoot at or get hit by a wave of green. So only one side is doing lots of moving. That will save a bit of time
Finally if you think how Pauls pyramid game went .... Orlygg and the guy he was playing (sorry can't remember your name but do remember your lovely undead minis) fought their little battle at that end of the table completely out of sink with the rest of us. It didn't even matter when Orlygg sent one unit in my direction .... I think we were on turn six and they were on turn eight .... but it just didn't matter.
It just needs a bit of a relaxed attitude. Folks need to be happy if someone starts moving their masses of green minis at one end of the table whilst two guys finish rolling the dice for the last combat at the other end of the table, etc.
Also the relaxed atmosphere (snail like pace
) in both games allowed me time to nip off and look at other games, chat to folks, get a brew, a bacon butty, buy some minis from the Foundry, drink beer, take photographs, drool over other folks minis. So .... my sugestions are:
Deep deployment zones.
If nothing is going to happen ask the GM if you can move and reserve move at the same time.
If you have lots of men to move and nothing is going to happen ask the GM if you can crack on and move your men for the next turn whist others mop up the last turn.
If you find yourself in a battle that really does not seem to be affected by or affecting anything else that is going on ask the GM if you can just crack on at your own pace.
Finally ... and most importantly ... Everyone relax into the Oldhammery pace of life. The world has got itself in a great big hurry. Have a weekend off. Make the most of any gaps in the action to make some new friends and immerse yourself in Oldhammery goodness.
Thantsants
Member
That all sounds far too reasonable Harry! 
lenihan
Moderator
So I'm getting overexcited about the siege again, and I've been reading through the Warhammer Siege book. One thing that we should definitely factor into our preparations is making sure that the attackers have enough ladders etc., the defenders have all the cauldrons they need for tipping boiling urine onto the heads of beseigers, that sort of thing. It would be good to be sure that participants have enough of those bits and pieces to bring along, and if we know ahead of the battle that the attackers all need to get a couple of ladders ready each, or whatever, then we can make a start on that now.
As I mentioned earlier, I'd also like to have a go at converting one of the more arcane siege engines from the book, but that does raise the question of who should plan to bring what in terms of battering rams, siege towers, etc... So far my guys aren't the best equipped in the world, only got one ladder and one log ram, but maybe it's time to chop down some trees and tool ourselves up!
As I mentioned earlier, I'd also like to have a go at converting one of the more arcane siege engines from the book, but that does raise the question of who should plan to bring what in terms of battering rams, siege towers, etc... So far my guys aren't the best equipped in the world, only got one ladder and one log ram, but maybe it's time to chop down some trees and tool ourselves up!
Jeff McC
Member
Looks like the stars are going to align and I'll be able to attend again this year. I'd like to get in on the siege game if it's not too late...I can bring forces for either side (I've orcs, chaos, elves, dwarves and empire available in varying quantities). What's needed at this point?
Erny
Member
Whatever you fancy Jeff, if you bring it then it will get used. That's the plan anyway.
As to siege equipment, I have a couple of siege towers and simple rams plus more ladders than you can shake a stick at. For the defenders I have the sixth edition siege defenders set knocking about somewhere. However it wouldn't hurt for people to make themselves simple log rams or piles of rocks or boulders, very easy to do and would get used. The attackers could probably do with a covered ram.
As to siege equipment, I have a couple of siege towers and simple rams plus more ladders than you can shake a stick at. For the defenders I have the sixth edition siege defenders set knocking about somewhere. However it wouldn't hurt for people to make themselves simple log rams or piles of rocks or boulders, very easy to do and would get used. The attackers could probably do with a covered ram.
Thantsants
Member
Mr Furious
Member
Thantsants":2wxvoq0t said:
That is so cool! I always thought of the dragon headed chaos battering ram when seeing this but now realise Grond is a wolf headed. B
Erny
Member
Right time for my ideas for Game two,
Sally who?
This game is I think closest to the one that Thantsants had initially hoped to play on his farm Weekend. The following hopefully will allow him to recreate the vision he had for the game but also ensure it ties in with the two games either side of it. Worth reading the first scenario to see how this game has been affected already (second post down from here: http://forum.oldhammer.org.uk/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=2956&start=70)
The aim is I guess to recreate something of the minor skirmishes that could happen during a protracted siege, just for the purposes of a big game in limited time with several of these skirmishes happening at once.
To tie the game into the previous one the number and or quality of troops available to each side will be affected by the moral/resource value scored. Exactly how needs to be determined but it needs to be flexible to allow greater or fewer actual numbers depending on who turns up.
The attackers will be restricted by what is on table to begin with. There would be the siege engines and some units to guard them, harassing units shooting missiles to the ramparts and units enough to ensure the city isn’t resupplied and any pockets of resistance are contained if not obliterated. The rest would be living off the land elsewhere to ensure supplies and prevent infighting over limited resources. The number of farmsteads captures intact too pillage therefore impacts on how many units are on table at the start. Troops can enter the table as trailing forces but we should probably restrict how many per turn would turn up. It’s important to place this restriction otherwise the defending forces would be on a hiding to nothing with a sally. There should be hope at the start diminishing as the turns go by.
The defenders are likewise restricted on how many troops they dare to use sallying out to accomplish tasks. Any units holed up in farmsteads or hiding in the woods would automatically be available, units using missiles from the ramparts may be restricted, how many crossbow blots do we have to waste before the inevitable assault? Troops charging out of the gates or climbing down from the ramparts would be used more cautiously. In the is way the number of moral points restricts in some way the troops available.
A note on war machines. Warmachines in 3rd are deadly and can quickly make a mess of any game, particularly if used en-mass. If the sallying troops are flattened by ten stone throwers ion the first turn why did we all bother coming? If the defenders cannon rips apart the siege towers (they always do) when do we ever get to see them hit the wall?
My proposal is perhaps a bit much but here goes, I propose war machines to be objectives. This means they don’t fire in the game, crew are there to defend the machine or they are firing but any affect is part of a cumulative effect that is only noticed later. pipe up if this is too much for you and we'll work something else out but please hear me out..
At the end of the game after crew have been killed and machines destroyed the number of crew left is counted up. You only count crew if there are war machines they could service so if you have 20 crew left and only four 3 man stone throwers you only get to count 12 crew. Equally if you have too few crew to man the machines you have left unskilled workers can be drafted in at a rate of 1 for every 2 surviving crew up to the number needed to fully crew all remaining war machines. These workers now count as crew. If we had 12 crew left and five three man stone throwers 3 labourers could be drafted in. The number of crew represents in some way the amount of bombardment possible. Devoting some crew to hitting the wall or the attackers preparations increases the chances of a breech or destroyed siege machine, devoting more to chucking things (dead cows, prisoners, prisoners heads, stones, warpstone powder) into the opposing army (only works for crewed stone throwers or at a push mortars) acts to decrease the opposing sides moral/resource bonus. War machines can also be used in a counter battery style with crew points being used to counter act the opposing factions machines. This makes it important to both kill crew and destroy machines but also bigger machines potentially do more damage.
In some way, I’m not sure how yet it would be good to work in how supplies of ammunition could affect each sides strategic use of warmachines. Also I would say organ guns, swivel guns and even bolt throwers, things not designed for siege work should be used normally.
This all has the added bonus of giving something to play for that will actually impact on the final game, reducing crew and war machines deprives the attacker needed crew points or machines for the crew to man so a successful defense must be made.
Other objectives could include tunnels to undermine, these also have crew which count double if an appropriate race is used (see siege book) but would only count towards making a breach in the wall or successful counter-mines. Magical, ritual summonings, these would be special crew that count double, representing some cult or other summoning disease or fire daemons/spirits inside the other camp and can only be used to decrease the opposing sides moral/resource bonus. Any other ideas? If the attacker feels they have enough troops they could also consider a limited assault to spike cannon or even capture a tower or gate house.
The defender should have a restriction on how many machines/counter mines they are using as they would be hard for the attacker to target. However for the attacker if you want it to count towards strategic bombardment or be a siege machine used in the final assault it needs to be on the table in this game and up for grabs. The more you put on the table the more you may end up with but also the harder it will be to defend with limited units.
It is assumed whatever happens that eventually the defenders are convinced they will soon be overwhelmed and must call off the sally and return to the city for the eventual, inevitable assault.
Sally who?
This game is I think closest to the one that Thantsants had initially hoped to play on his farm Weekend. The following hopefully will allow him to recreate the vision he had for the game but also ensure it ties in with the two games either side of it. Worth reading the first scenario to see how this game has been affected already (second post down from here: http://forum.oldhammer.org.uk/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=2956&start=70)
The aim is I guess to recreate something of the minor skirmishes that could happen during a protracted siege, just for the purposes of a big game in limited time with several of these skirmishes happening at once.
To tie the game into the previous one the number and or quality of troops available to each side will be affected by the moral/resource value scored. Exactly how needs to be determined but it needs to be flexible to allow greater or fewer actual numbers depending on who turns up.
The attackers will be restricted by what is on table to begin with. There would be the siege engines and some units to guard them, harassing units shooting missiles to the ramparts and units enough to ensure the city isn’t resupplied and any pockets of resistance are contained if not obliterated. The rest would be living off the land elsewhere to ensure supplies and prevent infighting over limited resources. The number of farmsteads captures intact too pillage therefore impacts on how many units are on table at the start. Troops can enter the table as trailing forces but we should probably restrict how many per turn would turn up. It’s important to place this restriction otherwise the defending forces would be on a hiding to nothing with a sally. There should be hope at the start diminishing as the turns go by.
The defenders are likewise restricted on how many troops they dare to use sallying out to accomplish tasks. Any units holed up in farmsteads or hiding in the woods would automatically be available, units using missiles from the ramparts may be restricted, how many crossbow blots do we have to waste before the inevitable assault? Troops charging out of the gates or climbing down from the ramparts would be used more cautiously. In the is way the number of moral points restricts in some way the troops available.
A note on war machines. Warmachines in 3rd are deadly and can quickly make a mess of any game, particularly if used en-mass. If the sallying troops are flattened by ten stone throwers ion the first turn why did we all bother coming? If the defenders cannon rips apart the siege towers (they always do) when do we ever get to see them hit the wall?
My proposal is perhaps a bit much but here goes, I propose war machines to be objectives. This means they don’t fire in the game, crew are there to defend the machine or they are firing but any affect is part of a cumulative effect that is only noticed later. pipe up if this is too much for you and we'll work something else out but please hear me out..
At the end of the game after crew have been killed and machines destroyed the number of crew left is counted up. You only count crew if there are war machines they could service so if you have 20 crew left and only four 3 man stone throwers you only get to count 12 crew. Equally if you have too few crew to man the machines you have left unskilled workers can be drafted in at a rate of 1 for every 2 surviving crew up to the number needed to fully crew all remaining war machines. These workers now count as crew. If we had 12 crew left and five three man stone throwers 3 labourers could be drafted in. The number of crew represents in some way the amount of bombardment possible. Devoting some crew to hitting the wall or the attackers preparations increases the chances of a breech or destroyed siege machine, devoting more to chucking things (dead cows, prisoners, prisoners heads, stones, warpstone powder) into the opposing army (only works for crewed stone throwers or at a push mortars) acts to decrease the opposing sides moral/resource bonus. War machines can also be used in a counter battery style with crew points being used to counter act the opposing factions machines. This makes it important to both kill crew and destroy machines but also bigger machines potentially do more damage.
In some way, I’m not sure how yet it would be good to work in how supplies of ammunition could affect each sides strategic use of warmachines. Also I would say organ guns, swivel guns and even bolt throwers, things not designed for siege work should be used normally.
This all has the added bonus of giving something to play for that will actually impact on the final game, reducing crew and war machines deprives the attacker needed crew points or machines for the crew to man so a successful defense must be made.
Other objectives could include tunnels to undermine, these also have crew which count double if an appropriate race is used (see siege book) but would only count towards making a breach in the wall or successful counter-mines. Magical, ritual summonings, these would be special crew that count double, representing some cult or other summoning disease or fire daemons/spirits inside the other camp and can only be used to decrease the opposing sides moral/resource bonus. Any other ideas? If the attacker feels they have enough troops they could also consider a limited assault to spike cannon or even capture a tower or gate house.
The defender should have a restriction on how many machines/counter mines they are using as they would be hard for the attacker to target. However for the attacker if you want it to count towards strategic bombardment or be a siege machine used in the final assault it needs to be on the table in this game and up for grabs. The more you put on the table the more you may end up with but also the harder it will be to defend with limited units.
It is assumed whatever happens that eventually the defenders are convinced they will soon be overwhelmed and must call off the sally and return to the city for the eventual, inevitable assault.
Thantsants
Member
That all sounds great Erny - I think using war machines in a more abstract fashion is definitely the way to go.
I feel the need to draw up some results charts for the different options available to the attackers' and defenders' batteries of war machines...
The scenario should also give everyone plenty to do - mopping up survivors and taking farmsteads, sallying forth to take out enemy war machines or relieve embattled defenders.
Mining operations would be fun to include. As for magic - perhaps teaming up a bunch of magic users to try and overcome the magical barrier that surrounds the town wall?
I feel the need to draw up some results charts for the different options available to the attackers' and defenders' batteries of war machines...
The scenario should also give everyone plenty to do - mopping up survivors and taking farmsteads, sallying forth to take out enemy war machines or relieve embattled defenders.
Mining operations would be fun to include. As for magic - perhaps teaming up a bunch of magic users to try and overcome the magical barrier that surrounds the town wall?
Jeff McC
Member
I had time to sit down and run back through the thread today so...
I'm definitely in for Saturday - I'm thinking I'll be able to do Friday as well but won't know for certain until travel pans firm up. I would like all 3 meals on Saturday.
At this point I'm thinking that I'll join the forces of good. I'm going to see how far I can get with painting the remaining models for my wood elf army (about 90 models still to paint all told - it'll be a good source of motivation) and if the painting is incomplete I'll supplement with empire and dwarves.
Getting very excited about this event!
I'm definitely in for Saturday - I'm thinking I'll be able to do Friday as well but won't know for certain until travel pans firm up. I would like all 3 meals on Saturday.
At this point I'm thinking that I'll join the forces of good. I'm going to see how far I can get with painting the remaining models for my wood elf army (about 90 models still to paint all told - it'll be a good source of motivation) and if the painting is incomplete I'll supplement with empire and dwarves.
Getting very excited about this event!