Undead over-pointed in 3rd Ed?
- Thread starter Chico
- Start date
Subedai
Baron
The study and interpretation of the arcane rules of 3rd is one of the many lures of Oldhammer. In the end, it matters not which path you tread, for they all lead to eternal damnation.Skarsnik & Old Lead":1bilndie said:Never mind necromancer licenses being revoked, with the amount of powergaming talk in this thread, you should all have your oldhammer licenses revoked
Zhu Bajie
Baron
There's no doubt that the Undead create their own flavour and dominates the narrative. There's no point setting a standard force against them, unless you're going for the narrative like the Battle of Pelargir (Lord of the Rings) where the fear and terror of these horrific foes leads to victory.
Consider the Lichemaster, a sequence of battles, each larger than the last, and in the climactic battle the Living side is given a large arsenal of magical weapons with which to defeat Kemmler. It's pretty obvious that tactically the Living need to take down the controllers - challenges are very important, and surviving dead make it through to the next battle - so chopping off the head and letting the body die is the soundest tactic. For the Necromancer, the aim is to entangle as much of the Living army up as possible using his cheap horde troops and keep himself away from the main combat and other heroes.
Also, I rule that control does not pass instantly. If we think of a controller as someone whose will is animates the undead, the removal of that will is catastrophic. A new controller might take over next turn if they're in range. Balancing ranged control and local control is part of the stategy of an undead general.
Consider the Lichemaster, a sequence of battles, each larger than the last, and in the climactic battle the Living side is given a large arsenal of magical weapons with which to defeat Kemmler. It's pretty obvious that tactically the Living need to take down the controllers - challenges are very important, and surviving dead make it through to the next battle - so chopping off the head and letting the body die is the soundest tactic. For the Necromancer, the aim is to entangle as much of the Living army up as possible using his cheap horde troops and keep himself away from the main combat and other heroes.
Also, I rule that control does not pass instantly. If we think of a controller as someone whose will is animates the undead, the removal of that will is catastrophic. A new controller might take over next turn if they're in range. Balancing ranged control and local control is part of the stategy of an undead general.
Erny
Baron
Completely agree that my next O&G Vs Undead game Frenzy will be on the spell wish list but it isn't a given one level 15 has more chance to not have it. Also the canny Necromancer is going to have to try to get hold of dispel. We can see him now muttering about those psychotic green skinned shamans as he pours over arcane texts to discover the counter spell to their frenzy causing spirit dance.
However I agree, almost every game ideally is a scenario crafted for narrative purposes, giving the best most memorable games. I say almost because sometimes it's nice to pick a couple of armies out of the book and have at it.
That said I agree skeles are very under pointed and anyone winning with them is almost cheating...
However I agree, almost every game ideally is a scenario crafted for narrative purposes, giving the best most memorable games. I say almost because sometimes it's nice to pick a couple of armies out of the book and have at it.
That said I agree skeles are very under pointed and anyone winning with them is almost cheating...
Zhu Bajie
Baron
TURN1:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IHc5La2Ta3c
TURN2:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=re0yOujaBoM
Oh yeah, Necromantic Orc Shaman with "Flight" and "Annihilate Undead", land behind the Liche and BOOM! It's a short scenario.
Not making the case about winning the game, just that a low PV for something that has major situational weaknesses as well as situational strengths.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IHc5La2Ta3c
TURN2:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=re0yOujaBoM
Oh yeah, Necromantic Orc Shaman with "Flight" and "Annihilate Undead", land behind the Liche and BOOM! It's a short scenario.
Not making the case about winning the game, just that a low PV for something that has major situational weaknesses as well as situational strengths.
Erny
Baron
And boom, you never get to play that undead player again. I remember taking a talismanic standard and casting elemental horde (or what ever its name) on my first turn. My Empire army stomped to victory as three earth elementals took apart my friends chaos army. My friend never played me again.
Zhu Bajie
Baron
Erny":27aflvdd said:
Yeah, people need to leave their "I MUST WIN" egos at the door and learn to face defeat with humour. Of course once it's done, change up the scenario and tactics. Elemental Hordes <?> and laser guided anti-undead flying orcs might be fun the first time, but using the same exploit every time isn't fun.
Zhu Bajie
Baron
Warlord Paul":2rertw59 said:
Which is why skeletons should be valued at 2.5 because the 'magic' of Undead Control, and causing Fear does not come under the points system. The failure of 3E is to make it try, and is what led to 4E and beyond.
And yeah, sure if someone threw a laser-guided thermo-nuclear flying anti-undead orc at my Skeleton Horde I'd laugh. The first time. The second time? No, that shows a profound lack of creativity and inability to get into the spirit of the game. Same if they always used Frenzy or whatever.
Thantsants
Baron
Agreed - it was a really exciting game and as the shaman was a savage I didn't feel too cheesy having him magically inciting his brothers into frenzy. We'll have to have a think about it next time to avoid a similar situation - maybe make spell casting in the presence of a liche more risky for the Orcs with some house rules? Bring more high level Orc characters to boost leadership and cool in the ranks?
The Orc's Drift scenario had a good way round the effects of panic for the outnumbered defenders - it ruled for example that the Wood Elves of Kachas Pass were immune to panic and routing while inside their besieged compound - the last line of defence on that particular road which led to Orc's Drift and ultimately the capital, Palesandre. Plus the commander had a death wish to fulfil as he had disgraced himself by having an affair with the Queen of the Woods - a nice narrative device that stops the overrun and hugely outnumbered defenders running away 3 turns in to the game.
The 2nd ed rules are quite nice too - units that have left the table may re-enter on a particular dice roll in subsequent turns - or something like that. Hopefully your panic-stricken army might come back in enough numbers to tip the balance on one flank...
Erny
Baron
I found my magically frenzied boar boys still couldn't smash through a regular unit of skeletons who also made a complete recovery after the first round due to instability. Their champion managed to dispatch my hero with a degenerative strike. All very painful to the poor pig bovverers' pride. Frenzy did stop the running but also takes away some of the tactical options. Also remember Frenzy isn't a given if you roll spells randomly. If you have dispel up your sleeve yo can also make things very interesting just as you are coming up to charge a magically frenzied unit.
In scenarios as Thantsants points out, it is down to the GM to work the interest and the balance into the lists, this should extend to spell lists and would be a chance to use unlikely combinations of spells creatively.
As we are talking spells the best Cl boosters for O&G units are level 5 goblin shaman +1 Cl for 30 odd points.
In scenarios as Thantsants points out, it is down to the GM to work the interest and the balance into the lists, this should extend to spell lists and would be a chance to use unlikely combinations of spells creatively.
As we are talking spells the best Cl boosters for O&G units are level 5 goblin shaman +1 Cl for 30 odd points.
Thantsants
Baron
We rolled spells randomly for the Bridge over the River Chai game that Dreamfish GM'ed over the interwebz.
There were a few spells I got that weren't much use but I kind of like the idea of having some powerful wizard who happens to have a fairly useless skill set for the situation he finds himself in a pathetic aesthetic kind of way.
It did mean I began to contemplate some pretty far out ways of making the less useful spells useful - mind you I did also come to rely a bit heavily on Mystic Mist to protect me from Dwarven artillery but had great fun summoning skeletons as a Goblin Shaman
There were a few spells I got that weren't much use but I kind of like the idea of having some powerful wizard who happens to have a fairly useless skill set for the situation he finds himself in a pathetic aesthetic kind of way.
It did mean I began to contemplate some pretty far out ways of making the less useful spells useful - mind you I did also come to rely a bit heavily on Mystic Mist to protect me from Dwarven artillery but had great fun summoning skeletons as a Goblin Shaman
Grumdril
Vassal
Without wanting to offend WP with tactical discussions (or worse, this might be a rules discussion!) I have to throw in a few things that have been bobbing around in my head since this came up (and then having looked up the Frenzy rules).
Putting aside for a moment whether or not you have the Frenzy spell in your repertoire, it doesn't seem to me that frenzy is a sure thing as a leveller, which was the impression I got from the initial discussions.
Firstly you have to be charging in order to be able to go into frenzy (and hence need to pass a cool test against feared opponents) and then you need to fail a cool test to actually go into frenzy. I can't work out the odds in my head but this seems to favour lowish Cl troops such as orcs with good leaders (who can use their Cl bonus in reverse to make the frenzy test easier to pass) rather than high Cl troops who will probably be able to charge but may well not go into a frenzy (even with a Hero 15 the odds are that dwarves won't frenzy). On top of that dwarves have the further problem of short legs meaning they are more likely to be charged than charging.
Having said all that I've played precisely 1.5 games in the last 20+ years, so my experience of what's the priority may be off. Not routing when charged is clearly important, but it seems to me the automatic rout when pushed back (unless frenzied or otherwise ignoring fear) is the bigger issue.
So can someone give me a bit more background / insight - what are the key points about troops with fear, or in the more general topic title what trump cards other than fear do skeletons / undead have?
Putting aside for a moment whether or not you have the Frenzy spell in your repertoire, it doesn't seem to me that frenzy is a sure thing as a leveller, which was the impression I got from the initial discussions.
Firstly you have to be charging in order to be able to go into frenzy (and hence need to pass a cool test against feared opponents) and then you need to fail a cool test to actually go into frenzy. I can't work out the odds in my head but this seems to favour lowish Cl troops such as orcs with good leaders (who can use their Cl bonus in reverse to make the frenzy test easier to pass) rather than high Cl troops who will probably be able to charge but may well not go into a frenzy (even with a Hero 15 the odds are that dwarves won't frenzy). On top of that dwarves have the further problem of short legs meaning they are more likely to be charged than charging.
Having said all that I've played precisely 1.5 games in the last 20+ years, so my experience of what's the priority may be off. Not routing when charged is clearly important, but it seems to me the automatic rout when pushed back (unless frenzied or otherwise ignoring fear) is the bigger issue.
So can someone give me a bit more background / insight - what are the key points about troops with fear, or in the more general topic title what trump cards other than fear do skeletons / undead have?
