Undead over-pointed in 3rd Ed?

[Basement Dweller]

Mummies aren't worth the points unless you're playing 3k+ imo. They're better in 2nd because you can use them as unit leaders.

That's too bad...really my favorite model type for the undead.

 

[Grumdril]

Big units of skeletons with standards, decent leaders (to do the actual fighting) and reasonable armour are good - if you push back a unit that fears you it routs, never mind how good its Cool is.

Skeletons probably are too expensive at 10 points each, but at their cost according to the profile values (i.e. 2.5 points as per 2nd) they'd be too cheap imo. It is a bit odd that they're the glaring exception to the standard points values, on the other hand they're the main rank-and-file troop type of their army and have all the special bonuses (don't rout being another). Normally you need "special", expensive troops for fear, etc.

 

[Subedai]

I didn't find Skeletons to be overpriced when I used to go up against them but that is based on mostly playing with Orcs & Goblins. With half my army making it into combat and Goblins struggling not to lose a round of combat, the points values quickly even out.

Fear and Instability are a bit all or nothing in 3rd Edition, in later versions it can be more reliably factored in. I'm kind of in two minds about what's better, but why decide when I can play two versions of Warhammer!

 

[Chico]

I have to say I'm not looking forward to have my large blocks of Skeletons turn to dust with some bad Instability rolls lol Oh well time to get my Plague Cart put together and painted

Now the rules for Zombies & Ghouls makes me laugh. Zombies they run away if pushed back and Ghouls stop and eat causing a strip of small break away units.

 

[bug16]

Big units of skeletons with standards, decent leaders (to do the actual fighting) and reasonable armour are good - if you push back a unit that fears you it routs, never mind how good its Cool is.

You really do need decent leaders in each unit who are kitted out to survive challenges and dish out some pain. In my main combat units, i.e. not my speed bump units, I always go for Level 15 Undead Heros. I usually to give all heros at level 15 and above magic weapons with three attributes; one defensive and two offensive. As Erny discovered on Saturday Degenerative Strike is always great fun to prod your opponent with!

Skeletons probably are too expensive at 10 points each, but at their cost according to the profile values (i.e. 2.5 points as per 2nd) they'd be too cheap imo. It is a bit odd that they're the glaring exception to the standard points values, on the other hand they're the main rank-and-file troop type of their army and have all the special bonuses (don't rout being another). Normally you need "special", expensive troops for fear, etc.

For me it comes down to them not routing and the luck of your instability roll. Fear is easy to work around and not that big an ability imo. I still think that Skeletons are worth, with a hand weapon and shield, 8pts a pop.

 

[Dreamfish]

Last weekend I was fighting Skeletons with Bull Slann Riders and something interesting popped up in that fight. As you know Cold Ones cause fear, just like Skeletons, so we decided to rule fear out all together. Including auto rout when pushed back by a fear causing enemy. The Skeletons were controlled by a Liche champion which at some point died during the battle, leaving the Skeletons uncontrolled.

Skeletons are subject to instability. This means they test if pushed-back, within 12" of wizard using zone spell, or when a wizard casts a dispel magic spell. The test is made by rolling a D6 and consult a chart, see WFB, p. 206.

A unit which has no controller is subject to stupidity and will always vanish completely if it becomes unstable, see WFB, p. 260.

I think the instability roll is only made when a Skeleton unit is controlled; otherwise the above sentence doesn't make any sense. This means an uncontrolled Skeleton unit will vanish completely if pushed-back, within 12" of wizard using zone spell, or when a wizard casts a dispel magic spell.

You really need to control your Undead units; otherwise they're worth almost nothing. Especially when fighting an enemy immune to fear.

 

[bug16]

I think the instability roll is only made when a Skeleton unit is controlled; otherwise the above sentence doesn't make any sense. This means an uncontrolled Skeleton unit will vanish completely if pushed-back, within 12" of wizard using zone spell, or when a wizard casts a dispel magic spell.

Correct.

You really need to control your Undead units; otherwise they're worth almost nothing. Especially when fighting an enemy immune to fear.

Or fighting an enemy who's subject to frenzy either due to special ability or spells. It's also why when I raise units out of thin air I also raise a hero to control them.

 

[Dreamfish]

Big units of skeletons with standards, decent leaders (to do the actual fighting) and reasonable armour are good - if you push back a unit that fears you it routs, never mind how good its Cool is.

Skeletons probably are too expensive at 10 points each, but at their cost according to the profile values (i.e. 2.5 points as per 2nd) they'd be too cheap imo. It is a bit odd that they're the glaring exception to the standard points values, on the other hand they're the main rank-and-file troop type of their army and have all the special bonuses (don't rout being another). Normally you need "special", expensive troops for fear, etc.

Giant slayers come close to the same special abilities as Skeletons for only 8 pts, just like normal dwarfs.

 

[Chico]

Everyone of my Undead units has a level 5 Champion painted to go with them including Death Riders and Chariots. But a canny op will target the Champions and therefore make the units go pop.

Also I've been asking around and a Vampire/Liche/Necro over level 10 doesn't have to take a Magic Weapon, as the Rules only state a Undead Hero does which has there own entry in the Warhammer Rulebook.

 

[Dreamfish]

Also I've been asking around and a Vampire/Liche/Necro over level 10 doesn't have to take a Magic Weapon, as the Rules only state a Undead Hero does which has there own entry in the Warhammer Rulebook.

Correct.

I've been looking at the fear issue some more and feel there's something off about how we interpreted the rules. What do you guys think about the following. Most creatures that cause fear implicitly state that they're immune to fear or psychology all together. This implies to most of the ethereal creatures and demons. So there's a difference between causing fear and being immune to fear. Cold Ones however cause fear, but are not immune to it and slayers are immune to fear but do not cause fear.

Why would a fear causing unit not cause fear to another fear causing unit if they're not immune to it. Is it mentioned anywhere? I can imagine a unit being subject to fear when charged if they're not immune to it. So unless explicity mentioned on the profile, causing fear should not opt out fear and all rules of fear still apply?

 

[Subedai]

Causing fear does not make you immune to fear automatically in 3rd, that is a concept which was only introduced in later editions.

 

[bug16]

Also I've been asking around and a Vampire/Liche/Necro over level 10 doesn't have to take a Magic Weapon, as the Rules only state a Undead Hero does which has there own entry in the Warhammer Rulebook.

Correct.

He's correct. I've played this wrong for years giving all characters over level 10 a magic weapon. Doh!

Causing fear does not make you immune to fear automatically in 3rd, that is a concept which was only introduced in later editions.

Yep!

 

[bug16]

Everyone of my Undead units has a level 5 Champion painted to go with them including Death Riders and Chariots. But a canny op will target the Champions and therefore make the units go pop.

You're wasting points putting level 5 champions in chariots. Level 15's or not at all imo otherwise you'll charge, bounce of the unit and either become unstable or pop.

 

[Chico]

Everyone of my Undead units has a level 5 Champion painted to go with them including Death Riders and Chariots. But a canny op will target the Champions and therefore make the units go pop.

You're wasting points putting level 5 champions in chariots. Level 15's or not at all imo otherwise you'll charge, bounce of the unit and either become unstable or pop.

Not really as I'm running 3 Chariots together , even though its states in the rules that i don't have to rank up i still rank them up for a 3 chariot charge so the lvl 5 is just there for a ''control'' purposes.

Played a small 1000pts game last night against the Wife (Yes she plays when i can force her too) and they tore though a Chaos Dwarf Unit.

 

[Subedai]

Everyone of my Undead units has a level 5 Champion painted to go with them including Death Riders and Chariots. But a canny op will target the Champions and therefore make the units go pop.

Any Necromancer, Vampire or Liche automatically controls any Skeleton unit within 12" so it's not all hinging on the Undead Heroes. A Necromancer or Liche in a reserve unit can keep the battle line together and use his magic while doing so.

 

[Chico]

Everyone of my Undead units has a level 5 Champion painted to go with them including Death Riders and Chariots. But a canny op will target the Champions and therefore make the units go pop.

Any Necromancer, Vampire or Liche automatically controls any Skeleton unit within 12" so it's not all hinging on the Undead Heroes. A Necromancer or Liche in a reserve unit can keep the battle line together and use his magic while doing so.

As Undead Characters are quite expensive in a 2000 Point game i only managed to get in 1 Vampire and 1 Liche so their 12" can't be everywhere not when the battlelines hit. On a 6 by 4 standard table 12 " ain't much

 

[Dreamfish]

Everyone of my Undead units has a level 5 Champion painted to go with them including Death Riders and Chariots. But a canny op will target the Champions and therefore make the units go pop.

Any Necromancer, Vampire or Liche automatically controls any Skeleton unit within 12" so it's not all hinging on the Undead Heroes. A Necromancer or Liche in a reserve unit can keep the battle line together and use his magic while doing so.

Mind you an Necromancer can only control if he has at least one necromancer spell.

 

[Subedai]

Mind you an Necromancer can only control if he has at least one necromancer spell.

A Necromancer without a Necromancy spell should have his licence revoked.

 

[Subedai]

As Undead Characters are quite expensive in a 2000 Point game i only managed to get in 1 Vampire and 1 Liche so their 12" can't be everywhere not when the battlelines hit. On a 6 by 4 standard table 12 " ain't much

Oi, da Count von So-an'-so wontz ta use dem fancy flank charge taktikz an' stuff, eh? Only got yaself ta blame den, dat's wot I say!

 

[bug16]

Everyone of my Undead units has a level 5 Champion painted to go with them including Death Riders and Chariots. But a canny op will target the Champions and therefore make the units go pop.

Any Necromancer, Vampire or Liche automatically controls any Skeleton unit within 12" so it's not all hinging on the Undead Heroes. A Necromancer or Liche in a reserve unit can keep the battle line together and use his magic while doing so.

As Undead Characters are quite expensive in a 2000 Point game i only managed to get in 1 Vampire and 1 Liche so their 12" can't be everywhere not when the battlelines hit. On a 6 by 4 standard table 12 " ain't much

After the weekend I think that Vampires are a waste of points. It's all about the Necromancers! I never use Liches.