Squats: What Went Wrong?

Tubehead

Vassal
Again, I was reading over this ancient thread:
Space Slann...where are they now?
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=4872
And Asslessman's remark got me to thinking;
"...they abandoned the Squats after realising the biker way wasn't the best of ways..."
(and I think we all know whose fault that was! :lol: )

So I'd like to ask everybody the following:

What turned us off about the way the Squat range was handled?

Given the immense popularity of Dwarfs in wargaming, why didn't they ever give it another try? I might add that considering the profusion of styles they provided for Imperial Guard, they might easily have relaunched the Squats with a range based on entirely different concepts and motifs.
 
Personally I liked all the initial metal Space Dwarf figs and even the plastic Squat set, but everything that came out subsequently was terribly unappealing to me design-wise. It just didn't seem SF-related enough, like they were drawing far too heavily on Norse motifs. I liked that the initial metal figs looked like the typical image of 80's space jockeys; truckers of the cosmos. They entirely lost that flavour once the plastic boxed set came out.
 
I'm a fan of most of it except the bog-standard hearth guard. I do have a soft spot for the exo-armoured Fabergé eggs though.

I particularly like the adventurers and dismounted bikers though the plastic arms that go with them are bloody awful.
 
Citizen Sade":2u7y35g2 said:
I'm a fan of most of it except the bog-standard hearth guard. I do have a soft spot for the exo-armoured Fabergé eggs though.

I particularly like the adventurers and dismounted bikers though the plastic arms that go with them are bloody awful.

I'll agree with all that.
Ah, you reminded me of how much I hated those plastic arms! What was with the heavy weapon arm looking like an american football helmet...? :roll:
They got WAY too into doing plastic arms back then. We'd have been better off without them.
Squats in Dune stillsuits or perhaps Vietnam era BDU fatigues, that's what we needed! Or maybe thrash metal squats with spikes and chains... Or zoot suit space gangster squats... Hell even Blakes 7 anorak squats I could have gone for... :|
 
Again, (and much like the Slann) I don't think they were a particularly popular force in the Studio, and that led to an under-investment in the design process. Added to that was the fact that pre-bikers they weren't very inspiring to play (yay, slow Imperial Guard!) and the dwarven WFB playstyle didn't really translate to 40k very well. The biker style they ended up with turned out not to be very popular either, and personally it just felt a bit jarring. I mean, I'm a biker, but if I was going to war I'd find something a bit more practical to fight on. Or preferably in.

If they'd done them as a race of mercenary tech tinkerers from the start, with armoured vehicles and ships alongside the bikes, I think they'd have fared better, especially with the emergence of plastic kits during the RT era.
 
dieselmonkey":22nubwqv said:
Again, (and much like the Slann) I don't think they were a particularly popular force in the Studio, and that led to an under-investment in the design process. Added to that was the fact that pre-bikers they weren't very inspiring to play (yay, slow Imperial Guard!) and the dwarven WFB playstyle didn't really translate to 40k very well. The biker style they ended up with turned out not to be very popular either, and personally it just felt a bit jarring. I mean, I'm a biker, but if I was going to war I'd find something a bit more practical to fight on. Or preferably in.

If they'd done them as a race of mercenary tech tinkerers from the start, with armoured vehicles and ships alongside the bikes, I think they'd have fared better, especially with the emergence of plastic kits during the RT era.

Hm. Well all that is definitely food for thought. I remember thinking something pretty much along the lines of "yay, slow Imperial Guard" myself the first time I took them to battle back in the day...!
I think I just resolved to use them defensively, and then it never went well, so it was over to marines or orks or whatever again until the stunties lay forgotten by the wayside...
 
Tubehead":3kmd87r4 said:
Hm. Well all that is definitely food for thought. I remember thinking something pretty much along the lines of "yay, slow Imperial Guard" myself the first time I took them to battle back in the day...!
I think I just resolved to use them defensively, and then it never went well, so it was over to marines or orks or whatever again until the stunties lay forgotten by the wayside...

They worked quite well as a defensive line when used as an abhuman contingent to an Imperial Guard army, but they really sucked at attacking objectives, even more than standard IG!
 
dieselmonkey":2vo629b5 said:
If they'd done them as a race of mercenary tech tinkerers from the start, with armoured vehicles and ships alongside the bikes, I think they'd have fared better, especially with the emergence of plastic kits during the RT era.

This is definitely the feel they had in early RT, should have been a real heavy industry nomadic deep-space gearhead force. Kept the hoverboards for an elite suicide unit, gone with heavy-armoured vehicles with articles in White Dwarf showing you how to turn lager cans into heavy transport vehicles by sticking bits of land-raider on them. Names like Lister, Ace, Ned and Petersen, dropped the ZZ-top look and pseudo-norse elements, given them patched up leathers and Parker jackets, proper projectile weapons, Thudd Pistols, Thudd Rifles.
 
Zhu Bajie":vzx652n7 said:
dieselmonkey":vzx652n7 said:
If they'd done them as a race of mercenary tech tinkerers from the start, with armoured vehicles and ships alongside the bikes, I think they'd have fared better, especially with the emergence of plastic kits during the RT era.

This is definitely the feel they had in early RT, should have been a real heavy industry nomadic deep-space gearhead force. Kept the hoverboards for an elite suicide unit, gone with heavy-armoured vehicles with articles in White Dwarf showing you how to turn lager cans into heavy transport vehicles by sticking bits of land-raider on them. Names like Lister, Ace, Ned and Petersen, dropped the ZZ-top look and pseudo-norse elements, given them patched up leathers and Parker jackets, proper projectile weapons, Thudd Pistols, Thudd Rifles.

You guys are dead right!!! :grin:
Geat missed opportunity #10764...
 
Zhu Bajie":2oiwol2u said:
dieselmonkey":2oiwol2u said:
If they'd done them as a race of mercenary tech tinkerers from the start, with armoured vehicles and ships alongside the bikes, I think they'd have fared better, especially with the emergence of plastic kits during the RT era.

This is definitely the feel they had in early RT, should have been a real heavy industry nomadic deep-space gearhead force. Kept the hoverboards for an elite suicide unit, gone with heavy-armoured vehicles with articles in White Dwarf showing you how to turn lager cans into heavy transport vehicles by sticking bits of land-raider on them. Names like Lister, Ace, Ned and Petersen, dropped the ZZ-top look and pseudo-norse elements, given them patched up leathers and Parker jackets, proper projectile weapons, Thudd Pistols, Thudd Rifles.

I've done mine as the JMC, (The Jamakeer Mining Corporation), so they had some mining equipment, transport shuttles and light weaponry to guard their mining installations. I keep meaning to do something a bit heavier duty like we've mentioned with the 50 or so squats I've got left in the leadpile, but I've not got round to it yet.
 
dieselmonkey":30psk1v0 said:
I've done mine as the JMC, (The Jamakeer Mining Corporation), so they had some mining equipment, transport shuttles and light weaponry to guard their mining installations. I keep meaning to do something a bit heavier duty like we've mentioned with the 50 or so squats I've got left in the leadpile, but I've not got round to it yet.

Juggernaut mining vehicle? (RT p.106)
 
Tubehead":33vzm49l said:
dieselmonkey":33vzm49l said:
I've done mine as the JMC, (The Jamakeer Mining Corporation), so they had some mining equipment, transport shuttles and light weaponry to guard their mining installations. I keep meaning to do something a bit heavier duty like we've mentioned with the 50 or so squats I've got left in the leadpile, but I've not got round to it yet.

Juggernaut mining vehicle? (RT p.106)

Heh, I was thinking more in line with a proper heavy attack force with multiple vehicles, rather than a single massive vehicle. I've made too many of those already, I'm running out of storage space!
 
There was quite an interesting write-up by Jervis Johnson some years ago about this. He said the main problem was that they didn't ever seem to have their own identity and style in 40k, unlike in Epic where they had those great war machines, land trains and blimps etc.

Apparently it was questionable whether they would actually even be in 2nd edition, but he said they decided to just as a place holder in case they wanted to update them properly. Someone above in the thread commented that no-one in the design studio really felt enthusiastic about tackling them and I think that was what Jervis said too. In the end they just got forgotten about for 3rd edition, and then an extremely crass and poorly thought-out message (rather than treating it with sensitivity) in an issue of WD about them all being eaten by Tyranids and that really everyone needed to grow up and move on (or words to that effect).

I guess it was a vicious circle: miniatures weren't terribly appealing compared to some of the others, most of the 'biker gang' type players went with Orks, and then less sales and visibility meant less and less effort spent on them. They then became something of a joke and 'squat' became a derivative term. I remember at one time it was forbidden to mention them on the official GW forums. And if you think Ian Watson's 'Inquisitor' series was re-drafted with the 'Grimm the Squat' character written out and replaced by a tech adept. To me, that smacks of a lot more than not caring, but that someone senior in the design team had a very serious dislike for them!

I was looking at the Dark Millenium rulebook (2nd edition expansion) the other day and it did actually have some unreleased Squat miniature pictures in it. I'll have to see if I can find images of them posted online but there was a lot more of an 'artisan' style to them similar to Dwarves in fantasy (or now Kharadrons especially) with armoured face plates shaped like a Dwarf with a beard. If I had to guess I would say they were probably a Dwarf sculpt that had been adapted to hold a bolt pistol and with some accessories.

Mantic have done a pretty good 'sci-fi dwarf' range called Forge Fathers. I think those are pretty much the kind of thing GW would have done if they had ever re-visited the concept, there are some quite cool miniatures in there. I keep meaning to get hold of some to use as Squats for 2nd ed rules.
Of course, nowadays with the massive plastic kit direction of GW (knights, super heavies etc.) and modern manufacturing methods it would have been the perfect time to do all those big Squat vehicles. So perhaps they just came along before there time :)
 
Pacific":ckr4cq6r said:
There was quite an interesting write-up by Jervis Johnson some years ago about this...

All your observations and info here made for very interesting reading!

Pacific":ckr4cq6r said:
and then an extremely crass and poorly thought-out message in an issue of WD...

WD were doing a lot of that sort of irritatingly crass writing at that point, weren't they? It became a headache to look through. Wasn't that also right around the time that Doctor Who Magazine switched their ethic from "let's be informative and friendly" to "let's be derisive wankers"? Fortean Times did that too right around the same time. Was there some kind of sweeping media decision handed down from the Tavistock Institute to pee on stuff people liked in order to make the population unhappy and run to psychoanalysis for help or something? I wouldn't put it past them. :roll:

Pacific":ckr4cq6r said:
I was looking at the Dark Millenium rulebook (2nd edition expansion) the other day and it did actually have some unreleased Squat miniature pictures in it.

You mean those guys on the inside back cover? I think you're right and that those are indeed unreleased figs. Their stylistic motifs match the rather unusual Squat warrior drawing on p. 74 of Codex Imperialis (in 2E), which would imply that they were original builds, quickly forgotten. Nicely spotted!


I'll have a look at those Mantic figs. CP Models are also currently doing some not-Squats with an RT flavour, rather originally called "Space Dwarfs".
 
dieselmonkey":32w325cq said:
Again, (and much like the Slann) I don't think they were a particularly popular force in the Studio, and that led to an under-investment in the design process. Added to that was the fact that pre-bikers they weren't very inspiring to play (yay, slow Imperial Guard!) and the dwarven WFB playstyle didn't really translate to 40k very well. The biker style they ended up with turned out not to be very popular either, and personally it just felt a bit jarring. I mean, I'm a biker, but if I was going to war I'd find something a bit more practical to fight on. Or preferably in.

If they'd done them as a race of mercenary tech tinkerers from the start, with armoured vehicles and ships alongside the bikes, I think they'd have fared better, especially with the emergence of plastic kits during the RT era.

^So what you're telling me is that the 40K basically went to pot (or second edition, whichever comes first) when people at the studio started worrying too much about winning battles with their toys and quit telling goofball space stories in their heads? Say it ain't so! ;)

Forgive my bad attempt at humor. I don't mean to say that everything that came out after 1992 or so was bad. Quite the opposite. There was some great storytelling and some great miniatures along with it. But it was very much the "tournament" mentality that put me off the game for fifteen or twenty years. I just never really wanted to participate in that sort of gaming and at least in the Midwest of the United States it sort of took over for a while.
 
Googled for Pacific's Jervis Johnson talking about the Squats, and found this:

"I know I shouldn't get drawn on this... but... can't... resist

Seriously, a couple of points just so you can have an informed debate based on the real reasons that Squats are no longer available. Be warned, it is going to be hard reading for people that like the Squat background.

First of all, Squats were *not* dropped because they were not selling well. There were then, and are now, plenty of other figure ranges that sell in the sort of % quantaties that the Squats pulled down, especially when you look across all of the ranges produced by GW rather than just those for 40K.

No, the reason that the Squats were dropped was because the creatives in the Studio (people like me, Rick, Andy C, Gav etc) felt that we had failed to do the Dwarf 'archetype' justice in its 40K incarnation. From the name of the race (Squats - what *were* we thinking?!?!) through to the short bikers motif, we had managed to turn what was a proud and noble race in Warhammer and the other literary forms where the archetype exists, into a joke race in 40K. We only fully realised what we had done when we were working on the 2nd edition of 40K. Try as we might, we just couldn't work up much enthusiasm for the Squats. The mistake we made then (deeply regreted since) was to leave them in the background and the 'get you by' army list book that appeared. With hindsight, we should have dropped the Squats back then, and saved ourselves a lot of grief later on.

Anyway, the Squats made it into 2nd edition, and since we were doing army books for each of the races, we started to try and figure out what to do with them. Unfortunately we just couldn't figure out a way to update them and get them to work that we felt was good enough. The 'art' of working on an army as a designer is to find the thing that you think is cool and exciting about an army, and work it up into a strong theme. This 'muse' didn't strike any of us, and so, rather than bring out a second-rate product simply re-hashing the old background, we kept doing other army books instead, with stuff we did feel inspired by.

Now, while this was all going on for 40K, we were actually doing some rather good stuff for the Squats in Epic. On this scale there was a natural tendancy to focus on the big 'hand-made' war machines the Squat artisans produced, and this created an army with a feel that was very different to the biker hordes in 40K. However, this tended to reinforce the problems we saw in the Squat background rather than alleviate them, underlining what we *should* have done with the Squats in 40K.

In the end (and it took years to really get to the roots of the problem) this led to a realisation that we were going to have to drop the Squats in their 'Squat' form from the 40K background. There was little point having a major race that we weren't willing to make an army book for, and their inclusion in the background meant that people kept asking us when we'd do a Squat Codex. Instead we decided that we'd write the Squats out of the background by saying that their Homworlds had been devoured by a Tyranid Hivefleet. This would give us the option in the future to return to making a race based ont he Squat archetype for 40K. This race was given the name of Demiurg, and a certain amount of preliminary work was done to get a 'feel' for what the race would be like. At present the only hint of the Demiurg in 40K is the Demiurg spaceship for BFG. However, we do have this race 'in our back pocket' as a possible new race for 40K, or an interesting character model in Inquisitor, or whatever. So far the Demiurg have lost out to other projects, and it may be that their time never actually comes, as they will have to win through on their merits, not simply because we once made some Squat models in the past. At present, I have to say that it is more lilely that they *don't* make the cut than do, as there is a certain predudice these days to simply taking races from Warhammer and cross them over to 40K like we did in the early days, so it may be that the Squats/Demiurg end up remaining a footnote in the history of the 40K galaxy. Only time will tell...

The second point I'd like to make is about 'old moulds'. In the past, Mail Order in the UK and US used to be the place that we kept all of the retired moulds for Citadel Miniatures, and we used to offer a service where you could order any Citadel Mniature ever made from MO. However, there are now so many of these 'back catalogue' miniatures that it is simply impossible to keep all of the old moulds in Mail Order and offer this service. Instead, we pick and choose which back catalogue miniatures are kept available. At present we're still struggling to produce special catalogues for these ranges (in the US there is the 'Phone Book' catalogue with everything in it, while the UK has special 'collectors guides' that are themed round a race). Once we've ironed out the kinks in the way we deal with the range of collectors models we want to keep permenantly available, the plan is to offer up other parts of the back catalogue for limited periods of time. In effect this will divide the back catalogue into three parts: a range of classic models that are permenantly available, a range of classic models we dip into and bring out for a limited release, and a range of retired models that will no longer be sold either because we've decided that they are embarrassingly bad, or because we are no longer allowed to sell them due to licencing agreement changes. So far we're still slowly working on deciding which classic models we want to keep permenantly available, and its going to take several years to work through just those. The old Squat range is most likely to end up as retired models, I have to say, though there is a good chance that the Squat war engines they could simply into the limited release classic range. Once again, only time will tell...

I'll finish off by saying that whatever we decide to do 'officially', there is nothing stopping players with Squat armies from using them, either in Epic or 40k for that matter. There is no GW 'rule' against using old Citadel Miniatures, as long as you use them with exisiting army lists and in a way that won't cause confusion for other players. I recommend taking a positive stand by saying "Have you seen these cool old models? They're called the Squats and GW used to make them back in the late eighties/early nineties. I love 'em, so I count them as Imperial Guard and use them with the current rules..." Put like this I can't imagine that anyone would stop you from using your army.

Best regards,

Jervis Johnson
Head Fanatic"

TL:grin:R: The people at GW failed to see what was cool about Space Dwarves.

I find it interesting that Jervis thought Space Dwarves should be a "proud and noble race" which for me really misses the essence of what was cool about the Warhammer 40,000 Rogue Trader universe, and isn't all that true of Dwarves from myth or literature either.

It's also notable that the White Dwarf / Compilation "Biker Space Dwarf" army list was written by Bryan Ansell, Nigel Stillman and Graeme Davis - none of whom are mentioned by Jervis. Bryan left in 1991, so perhaps it was his enthusiasm for Biker Space Dwarfs had led the second phase of development, and without him they got put on the eternal back burner.

Just speculating, but The Slann, and Space Slann were Richard Halliwells concept, so when he moved on to Dark Future and Space Hulk (and then out of GW), they probably got left behind. Bryan and Davis also led development of the Zoats and Fimir, who also disappeared.
 
Zhu Bajie":38xryj6f said:
Googled for Pacific's Jervis Johnson talking about the Squats, and found this
Fascinating read that. Thanks for sharing, Zhu. :) Clears up some things.

It's a relief to know that we're all still allowed to use our Squat models...! :lol:

(Did anyone else find themselves attempting to conceive of ways to use their Squats in a manner that would cause confusion for other players?)

Anyhow Zhu, your notes at the end were a very interesting insight into how the different races could be reliant on their patron/designer/advocate in the studio.
"What happened to the Fimir?" was another question of mine you just answered! Thanks again. :grin: Very interesting stuff.
 
So then, maybe the unreleased Squats with the unusual motifs that Pacific spotted in Dark Millenium were samples of the "Demiurg"-style Squats...
 
Thanks for digging that one up Zhu !

That's an interesting observation about Brian Ansell leaving. The 'design studio' was definitely something that was led by the whims of the designers themselves back in those days, so that could easily be what happened.

I do think though that not having 'dwarves in space' is pretty nuts, considering their archetype of being tinkerers, miners etc. in many ways they would have been the perfect fit (and I'm sure a popular faction if done correctly).

Tubehead - I would need to check dates but I think the picture of the Squat pre-dates the Demiurg as a concept by some time. I know you had the BFG ships, mention in the Tau books (which came a lot later) and then an item in the 'Xenology' book, which seemed to indicate that they only had one eye (like a cyclops) - it's been a long time since I saw it though would need to check!

Funnily enough we have had Squats come back into 40k, with the special character for Necromunda (and I don't think the Demiurg have been mentioned for some time?)
 
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