Squats: What Went Wrong?

[dieselmonkey]

Funnily enough we have had Squats come back into 40k, with the special character for Necromunda

That's mainly down to Andy Hoare, current GW Specialist Brands manager,he's a confirmed fan of old school GW and one of the writers for the sadly no longer updated Tales From the Maelstrom blog. We (me, Andy and Gadge) ran a few Rogue Trader participation games at Foundry when it was based in Nottingham.

 

[Tubehead]

Tubehead - I would need to check dates but I think the picture of the Squat pre-dates the Demiurg as a concept by some time.

Oh you're probably indeed right, I was just speculating.

 

[Karak Norn Clansman]

There are a lot of great design ideas for Squats here! Well done, folks. Top brainstorming.

From what I read, sales for Squat products were good enough, but the studio didn't have any ideas for what they wanted to do with the space dwarfs come 2nd edition, so efforts went into other stuff for lack of inspiration. If only some of the ideas floated in this thread could have been presented to the studio back then.

The return of Rogue Trader classics to 40k in general, and to Necromunda in particular, is glorious. Great to hear about Andy Hoare.

Cheers

 

[Zhu Bajie]

I've no idea what a Codex Imperialis Dark Millenium is, but CCM Wiki have some photos of unreleased 2nd edition Space Dwarfs.

http://www.collecting-citadel-miniature ... Unreleased

Not sure turning Squats into short Space Wolfs was ever going to be a winner, if ranges aren't distinct they'll just cannibalise each others sales.

It does highlight some of the major differences between the 'gritty' Rogue Trader, which seems to take a slightly more "what if fantasy races were aliens?" approach, rather than 2nd Editions "Fantasy in Spaaaace!" approach.

Ultramarines just going around enslaving Squats in Rogue Trader.

 

[Pacific]

That's the one Zhu - there is a painted example of that mini in the Dark Millenium rulebook (which was the expansion for 2nd edition 40k)

I agree it is definitely more Fantasy than Sci-Fi - I quite like the new Mantic Forge Father range as it is a little like that (with some of the troops having face plates and fluted armour) but they have dialled it back a bit.

Awesome RT era artwork too!

That's mainly down to Andy Hoare, current GW Specialist Brands manager,he's a confirmed fan of old school GW and one of the writers for the sadly no longer updated Tales From the Maelstrom blog. We (me, Andy and Gadge) ran a few Rogue Trader participation games at Foundry when it was based in Nottingham.

Ah that's interesting to know! That would explain how those games are now mining some of the classic concepts and bringing them back in those games (Beastmen etc.) Out of interest, do you know if there was anyone against the concept of Squats (or Dwarves in space in 40k) who has since left? I worked as a GW staffer back almost 20 years but went to Nottingham a couple of times and listened to some conversation of the developers, and it almost seemed to feel that way. Remember someone mentioning it there and you could almost have cut the atmosphere with a knife, it was a forbidden term!

 

[dieselmonkey]

Out of interest, do you know if there was anyone against the concept of Squats (or Dwarves in space in 40k) who has since left? I worked as a GW staffer back almost 20 years but went to Nottingham a couple of times and listened to some conversation of the developers, and it almost seemed to feel that way. Remember someone mentioning it there and you could almost have cut the atmosphere with a knife, it was a forbidden term!

I think the vast majority of the 'Old Guard' has now left the studio and so the intense dislike of Squats has faded. TBH i think it mainly came from Jervis, but that's just second hand hearsay so I wouldn't take it as gospel, though it makes sense.

It probably didn't help that it was used as a hammer to batter GW with during the earlyish days of the internet.

 

[Tubehead]

I worked as a GW staffer back almost 20 years but went to Nottingham a couple of times and listened to some conversation of the developers, and it almost seemed to feel that way. Remember someone mentioning it there and you could almost have cut the atmosphere with a knife, it was a forbidden term!

Perhaps a fear of reprisals from midget interest groups?
It might also have been something PC motivated, considering the media climate at the time.

 

[dieselmonkey]

Perhaps a fear of reprisals from midget interest groups?
It might also have been something PC motivated, considering the media climate at the time.

Not in the slightest!

 

[Tubehead]

Not in the slightest!

Thrud is hugely suspect to me as well. It was more often about feminism than it was about barbarianism... That's the sort of 80's media climate I'm referring to.

And the midget lobby was not to be trifled with if one wanted to keep ones kneecaps.

 

[symphonicpoet]

Since we're talking squat alternatives, I'll add Macrocosm and Ramshackle to the list. Macrocosm's Digger Corps is fantastic. Not sure what the percentages are, but a fair chunk of it was sculpted by Bob Olley. You can't really get any more legit than that. And Curtis Fell over at Ramshackle is a dedicated dwarf enthusiast with an increasingly full and fairly affordable range of very squat inspired spesh dwarves including a 28mm land train! Plenty of dwarves out there to fill your old-school sci-fi needs these days.

 

[Eric]

Another set would be those from Uscarl Miniatures, good models, but they are larger than the original GW Squats.

 

[symphonicpoet]

You know, I have a kickstarter from them but I'm not sure I'd ever seen their squats. (I have the genestealer coven with the goblins, though I've yet to paint up the gobbos.) All the genestealer hybrids size up very nicely indeed. I'm surprised the squats would be bigger. They're absolutely fantastic!

 

[Orjetax]

Since we're talking squat alternatives, I'll add Macrocosm and Ramshackle to the list. Macrocosm's Digger Corps is fantastic. Not sure what the percentages are, but a fair chunk of it was sculpted by Bob Olley. You can't really get any more legit than that. And Curtis Fell over at Ramshackle is a dedicated dwarf enthusiast with an increasingly full and fairly affordable range of very squat inspired spesh dwarves including a 28mm land train! Plenty of dwarves out there to fill your old-school sci-fi needs these days.

The most recent Macrocosm Kickstarter is primarily Olley, although the psyker-type one is not, I think that was Steve Marchant.

The prior Macrocosm Kickstarter has the Olley bikers. The dismounted biker bodies are Steve Marchant, it’s the body of his berserker available from the same Kickstarter. The arms for the dismounted bikers are by Alessio. The heads are by Olley. Whew. A true ensemble cast.


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[Orjetax]

Also the unreleased second edition sculpts rock.

Here are mine.

(Foreground models, on this last one)

Of course the provenance of these particular ones is uncertain.


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[Tubehead]

Also the unreleased second edition sculpts rock.

Hey! There's you on the right!

 

[Zhu Bajie]

Perhaps a fear of reprisals from midget interest groups?
It might also have been something PC motivated, considering the media climate at the time.

Not in the slightest!

Oh I don't know. Erasing the one faction that could be seen as representing working class (industrial /mining) seems more anti-pc

Thrud is hugely suspect to me as well. It was more often about feminism than it was about barbarianism...

Thrud was ended years before Squats were squatted, but indeed was countercultural humour to the mainstream Conan / Red Sonja barbarian cliches.

Makes you think doesn't it.

 

[Pacific]

Wow Orjetax - that is one of the concept minis isn't it (guy with mask, power axe and bolt pistol).

I'm almost afraid to ask where you got that from!

Since we're talking squat alternatives, I'll add Macrocosm and Ramshackle to the list. Macrocosm's Digger Corps is fantastic. Not sure what the percentages are, but a fair chunk of it was sculpted by Bob Olley. You can't really get any more legit than that. And Curtis Fell over at Ramshackle is a dedicated dwarf enthusiast with an increasingly full and fairly affordable range of very squat inspired spesh dwarves including a 28mm land train! Plenty of dwarves out there to fill your old-school sci-fi needs these days.

Ah I did wonder about the Digger Corps ! They are wonderful little minis, I got a couple of them to use as Mercs in Necromunda, saved me enough money to take the family out to dinner with the money saved on buying the official release (almost! )

 

[Orjetax]

Wow Orjetax - that is one of the concept minis isn't it (guy with mask, power axe and bolt pistol).

I'm almost afraid to ask where you got that from! )

Sure is.

I got all my unreleased squats on eBay. None from recasters, although who knows where the sellers got them. A couple I bought from one of the founders of the Squats FB group, and he was satisfied with their provenance.

There are recasters out there on eBay for these. I think it’s easier to identify which are clearly phony than it is to figure out the genuine article

 

[Pacific]

Ah that's cool, I wouldn't judge anyway to be honest for that kind of thing, regardless of where the miniature came from. Not for miniatures that have been out of production for 25 years or more, it's a wonder that it has survived at all!

I know I read about a load of the old Epic moulds being destroyed many years ago, it seems a real shame (there should be some kind of law against it! )

Do you mind me asking Orjetax do you use that force in any games?

 

[AranaszarSzuur]

My long-standing theory on what went wrong with Squats:

Squats were lovable crazies before the vile irredeemable Orks were given that role.

Then Squats were turned into Space Vikings before Space Wolves were given that role.

Then Squads had no place in Wh40k universe so they were eaten by Tyranids.

Just look at the original Squats. They really had character.