What is oldhammer to you?

[smiler]

Dunno man, Infinity looks perfectly serviceable for playing Chop-Sokey Kung Foo!

For me it's more about dismantling the apparatus of Warhammer, a semiotic game / culture jam / marxist critique / situationist revolutionary art project.

Haha you're a good man to have around Zhu!

Ok, what I'd like to discuss is how to bring in new players (as in people with no experience of the Oldhammer rulesets) and get this Oldhammer OSR going. what do people think, should I start a new topic or is this a suitable place? Or does no one else want to talk about it?

 

[Jonas]

From my POV, Oldhammer (RT) is a rules set, and an attitude, not a universe. Coming from an old-school RPG background ,the idea that a setting and a rules-set have a 1:1 correlation makes little sense (so often the 'feel' at odds with the 'setting', lookin' at you MERP) sure there is a setting supplied with the rules, but the game can be more open ended, flexible and creative than that - yeah you can use any minis you want not just "Rogue Trader" ones.

I'm not saying I think you MUST play supers, or WWII, or VSF with RT. I'm just saying with some tinkering, you can. I'm also saying that in re-factoring Warhammer into other universes, then you're also doing something creative and in my honest opinion, "revolutionary" as opposed to maintaining the status-quo.

I actually think we agree (somehow, maybe?), but maybe it is misunderstand only.

What I meant by Rogue Trader universe/setting is the setting that came with the Rogue Trader rulebook. This is the part of Rogue Trader which I wouldn't include super heroes in and this is where I put my miniatures and for me that is Oldhammer 40K.

I completely agree that Rogue Trader rules could be tweaked to do super hero gaming or whatever sci-fi/modern derived game you would want and then set your own universe or use another universe than the one provided with the book.

But to me the Oldhammer in my sci-fi gaming has mostly been taking the universe from the Rogue Trader books, the freedom of anything goes and then the rules have been secondary and I have never felt any regrets in trying out any rules I found interesting and use it with the setting built up in the Rogue Trader books and then build on by the community, my gaming group and myself.

That is why I feel, when I play any rules, it can be Oldhammer.

 

[Orjetax]

Ok, what I'd like to discuss is how to bring in new players (as in people with no experience of the Oldhammer rulesets) and get this Oldhammer OSR going. what do people think, should I start a new topic or is this a suitable place? Or does no one else want to talk about it?

I vote separate topic!

In part because I, for one, am going to respond to with questions like "What do
you mean by OSR?"

 

[runequester]

Im fine having the discussion here or in another thread. A new thread might be more effective though.


EDIT: OSR is "Old School Renaisance/Revolution/Revival/Rebirth/Regurgitated". In RPG circles, its basically the revival of original and old school D&D, with new games, adventures and material published by fans, a community of blogs, publications and general level of life and support.

 

[smiler]

Runequester covered it pretty well. There are a lot of similarities between the OSR and Oldhammer so it's worth having some understanding of where the OSR was and is. The OSR started with a very nostalgic approach, emulating the early versions of D&D and the published adventures from the 70s and 80s but eventually gained a following of people who wanted to see what could be done with the rulesets and DIY attitude. There's some very interesting and creative stuff out there that's worth a look if you like your RPGs simple and flexible.

Here's an article which provides some background to those interested:
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/article ... ol-Revival

 

[area23]

For me it's more about dismantling the apparatus of Warhammer, a semiotic game / culture jam / marxist critique / situationist revolutionary art project.

Run comrade! The old world is behind you!

 

[Padre]

I've played since 1983 and 1st edition. Back then it wasn't entirely sure if Warhammer was a roleplaying game or a wargame. That made it great, and we used it (LOTS) for both. I have continued through 2, 3, 6 , 7 & 8th editions to use it flexibly, with heavy RP elements. Those of you who have read my campaigns will know how true that is.

I reckon whatever Oldhammer is, I am definitely at least a subset of it, even though I currently (usually) play modified 8th ed rules with fan made lists.

(You did ask. I may have answered pretty much just like the last couple of times. But you did ask.)

 

[zoggin-eck]

For me, with Oldhammer, the more I read here (especially Zhu's comments) the more I realise "Oldhammer" means bugger-all to me.

I love seeing old models, both painted years ago and recently. I love reading the history of GW/games/artists/models. I love discussing in-print models (or rules) with a faintly similar flavour. I love reading about 80's GW/Citadel's contemporaries and precursors. I really like seeing people's own games/reports. I try to add something useful myself, hoping my occasional idea/answer might help someone.

I enjoy all of these things on this forum as well as the usual blogs (obvious ones like Zhu's, Orlygg's, Steve Casey's and lots more). While reading them, I've never once thought "that's Oldhammer!". Rather, it's just the natural discussion of miniatures and associated games. In this case, often by people simply returning to games they know they used to enjoy, or newer players checking earlier editions and older models out because they prefer them or thought they'd give them a try after seeing others do the same. Not really revolutionary. Same goes with all the people who already kept playing original D&D surprised to suddenly be called part of the "OSR". This is interesting to me, but not necessarily "Oldhammer", if we're going to use Zhu's definition.

Perhaps there's tons more "revolutionary" stuff going on with the facebook side? I guess I'd miss out, but I don't see it here. It's really all retrospective stuff and showing off old models (again, which I love seeing!).

So, I guess Oldhammer to me is simply the word I type into the browser to load this forum and a couple of similarly named blogs?

runequester, answering your original question, I'm a "collector" more than anything else. In the case of GW's games, it goes:

Painting/modelling/terrain > Background/novels > playing the game(s)

 

[Asslessman]

For me it's more about dismantling the apparatus of Warhammer, a semiotic game / culture jam / marxist critique / situationist revolutionary art project.

Well that's excatly it.

I think the real revolutionary side of the Oldhammer movement cmes form the fact we take every aspect of wargaming with warhammer and make it truly ours. I'm a bit surprised you seem to concentrate on using the rules to do so.
I would go as far to compare Oldhammer to hip-hop, a genre which develops in many forms (rap, dance, graffiti, DJing,...) and which with a bit of syncretism (merging of different beliefs) and creation gives birth to a completeky unique culture. (I know this is a sad example given how recuperation has made the major part of this culture silly but that's another subject).

Yes, the oldhammer way is here when you use the existing rules to create stats for your fishmen, giant dinosaurs, your gretchins in power amrour or whatever
The oldhammer spirit is also here when you just remember that the RT setting is just basically Nemesis the walock meets Dune and starwars and that you can pretty much add everything you want to it.
The oldhammer spirit is also here when you have no model available to represent something you came up with an dyou decide to either use proxies OR cretae your own models (Gods know how many new models sculpted from scratch have seen the light on the forum this year)
The oldhammer spirit is also here when you decide you can paint models just the way you like, not limiting yourself to a certain style, be it an "oldschool" one just for the sake of it or a new one at all costs.
The oldhammer spirit is also here when you decide army lists are just a tool and that though they're deisgned for more competitive gaming they can also be used for just the opposite.

For me Oldhammer is all about forgetting about the tools and concentrating on creativity and fun. YES some tools are more practical than others, I do agree RT and 2nd ed are far more practical tools to start with but if I have other ready made tools (rules in that case) under hand which seem more practical, I don't see no problem with using them (reason why we'll be using Conforntation AND Necromunda for BOYL since we have different purposes for instance).
Same thing is with models, I do prefer lead form a modelling POV but if plastic offers a cheaper and more convenient alternative or if if it allows me to do something Iwouldn't have been able to do otherwise, I'll use it.

 

[Suber]

Wow, I'm out of the forums for some time and you suddenly come out with five pages of defining Oldhammer again!

What can I say? According to the first post I would definitely be a collector but, as many of you have already pointed out, I tend to see Oldhammer as an attitude more than any other thing. My blog isn't just Oldhammer, but rather a wide sense of 'Oldschool'. I don't care pretty much about rules (that doesn't say much about me, being professionally a laws guy ), though I also fancy RT/2nd over later editions (which I do not play at all anymore).
The vibe, the feel, the philosophy underneath, the... how to put it? For me it's that what counts. Just enjoying a crazy game with tons of silly things happening at the same time, living the adventure. Not playing to beat the other guy. I despise that way of gaming. I guess that's what changed in players' minds and the point when Oldhammer turned into Newhammer.
So this is it, the way of approaching, may it be painting, modelling, gaming or enjoying your hobby in any way you try. The overall spirit defines us, even if we may act differently in details.

 

[Zhu Bajie]

For me it's more about dismantling the apparatus of Warhammer, a semiotic game / culture jam / marxist critique / situationist revolutionary art project.

Run comrade! The old world is behind you!

Genius. Pure genuis. That was staring me in the face all this time. Run comrade! the Old World is behind you!

Asslass, the Hiphop analogue works for me. I prefer the granularity and transparency of the PV system in WFB2E and RT, and the more open-ended feel of the background, as discussed elsewhere, they have a different feel. That and in he designers notes 40K2E disparages the kind of forces i like "frankenstein monsters" and talks about "abuse", which is an alien concept outside competitve gaming. Sigh. But there's only so many times we can discuss 1980s haircuts!

Jonas - I think we see the same, I just want to see stats for your giant orange Monkey for a game I play, and I think such stuff would encourage more zanyness

zoggin-eck, no threre's even less 'revolutionary' stuff on facebook, and most of the nice figure painting ends up here as well. Best thing is that GW ex-staffers sometimes turn up, I recently asked Tony Ackland, Rick Priestly and Bryan Ansell what books influenced early warhammer, and got some great responses from Tony and Rick.

 

[runequester]

The best part about the Rogue Trader points system is that it is so broken, it encourages players not to use it

The skill of eye-balling forces and getting a feel for what will work out okay is one of those that are hard to explain to someone. You just have to do it a few times and suddenly it'll make sense.

 

[Zhu Bajie]

The best part about the Rogue Trader points system is that it is so broken, it encourages players not to use it

Yeah, cause you need to be able to do basic maths, which is beyond the capabilities of most players these days

Knowing how, and when to apply a points system comes with experience, but letting GW management dictate what your army should consist of

 

[Asslessman]

Did the hip-hop analogy make you come up with the Gill Scott-Geron Détournement?

 

[Naagruz]

Re: Oldhammer - the Concept?

Oldhammer = retrogaming 1st-3rd edition Warhammer ( including 40k:RT, which is really just a 'sci-fi' supplement for 2nd ed. WFB).

Needz Moar Detailz? The Oldhammer Contract

I'm comfortable with that.

Not Talisman, not Blood Bowl, not Epic, not HeroQuest, not 4th+"Red Era", not Necromunda, not Gorkamorka, etc. Not that I don't like those retro-games, it's just that they already occupy other spots on Al Gore's Interweb.

Hey, that's a lot of "nots"! I do not like green eggs & ham....

 

[Asslessman]

Asslass, the Hiphop analogue works for me. I prefer the granularity and transparency of the PV system in WFB2E and RT, and the more open-ended feel of the background, as discussed elsewhere, they have a different feel. That and in he designers notes 40K2E disparages the kind of forces i like "frankenstein monsters" and talks about "abuse", which is an alien concept outside competitve gaming. Sigh. But there's only so many times we can discuss 1980s haircuts!

Note :you must have understaood when I talked about RT and 2nd ed I was referring to WHFB 2ed and not WH40k 2ed.

OK, I understand we do agree on the whole thing but that the main difference is that you prefer to avoid the conviniency of ready-made later publications.
I'm totally in sync with older rules being better mediums with far more open-ended backgorunds and most of us are. Just look at the late passion for RT expressed everywhere, everybody seems to come up with his own RT and this is the most interesting part of this "trend".

I was afraid this thread would take the same route as many others before but I have to say it's proven far more constructive this time. I especially like it did not end up like it did on the FB group.

 

[weismonsters]

For me, oldhammer is a hitting implement of considerable age.

 

[runequester]

Interesting that people would define out things like the original Blood Bowl, Space Marine 1st edition and whatnot.

 

[jprp]

Interesting that people would define out things like the original Blood Bowl, Space Marine 1st edition and whatnot.

Well if it included those it would be Oldworkshop wouldn`t it?

 

[runequester]

Well if it included those it would be Oldworkshop wouldn`t it?

It still is though. Most people aren't including Laserburn or Starguard despite both being games in the style we talk about.