What is oldhammer to you?

[Count Von Bruno]

The People's Liberation Front of Oldhammer.

Splitter!

 

[theottovonbismark]

To be honest, I don't see the point values/army lists as a tool for competetive play. Not for me that is. But it gives the oppertunety to play some games with less preperation.

If you need a game master and a large narative story for a game, then it will take a lot of preperation for at least the game master and it will also take a minimum of 3 people (game master and 2 players), unless one of the players is the game master.

But with the point values and army lists it is completely possible to set up a game quite fast and have some reasonable balanced games.

My gaming group is made up of people scattered all over Denmark and we rarely meet up more than a couple of people at times and often it happens quite random and out of the blue.

So for me the army lists help to set up games instead of never playing games. As an example we had a 40K 2nd edition game in January and with little notice an Ork and a Space Marine army was put together and a narative setting for the game. Alternatively no game would have been played.

Chosing our forces for such games often happens in the style of taking characters/units fit for the narrative we set up for that game, trying out whatever new unit just has been painted and such. So I would hardly say the army lists are making the games more competitive for the likes of me and my friends, they are just one more tool to use as we see fit.

That said, it is completely possible for us to play games without using army lists or point values and we have done that a lot, especially when playing early Victorian Sci-Fi games and homemade Post Apocalypse games.

Pragmatic. Amen Brother Jonas!

 

[Asslessman]

Or to put it another way, sacrifice freedom and creativity for convenience. Sounds counter revolutionary to me

You naughty you , just saying we don't have to reinvent the wheel everytime, let's just use what's been made and invent what hasn't so that we spend our creative energy on great revolutionary things, not on determining stats and PV when it's already been done. If I want fishmen in my bretonnian army, I'll jsut use whatever amry list I have and my oppoent feels like using and I will just invent stats and PV we both feel right, YES it will be easier to use WH2nd because the tools are in the box but if they're not that's no big deal.

Looking around the forum, I see no shortage of creativity and clearly no sign of mental lazyness from some so rest assured, Oldhammer is breathing far much healthily than Newhammer is.

 

[Jonas]

Hehehe. Yeah, I don't really see it as sacrificing freedom or creativity.

I don't chose to play games with army lists INSTEAD of creative, free and imaginative games, both types of games can easily co-exist in my world

And when we do go the army list way we often mix and match like we want, add and retract things and generally don't feel restricted by the guidelines of an army list. That's right, an army list to me is a guideline and not a restriction to what type of rules or miniatures I want to use.

 

[Zhu Bajie]

I don't chose to play games with army lists INSTEAD of creative, free and imaginative games, both types of games can easily co-exist in my world

Sure, and one playstyle is "Oldhammer", the other is being a counter-revolutionary codex-zombie

So, let's have a look... hmmm.... what system do you use these beauties?

According to your blog it's "Super System from Four Colour Studios "

So rather than apply Rogue Trader in a free and creative way, you used another system. That's great, I'm sure it's fun. But the point of Oldhammer is to use Warhammer as a creative toolkit to create games with GIANT MONKEY PEOPLE and BRAINS IN TANKS!

That's the revolution

 

[Captain Crooks]

I don't chose to play games with army lists INSTEAD of creative, free and imaginative games, both types of games can easily co-exist in my world

Sure, and one playstyle is "Oldhammer", the other is being a counter-revolutionary codex-zombie

So, let's have a look... hmmm.... what system do you use these beauties?

According to your blog it's "Super System from Four Colour Studios "

So rather than apply Rogue Trader in a free and creative way, you used another system. That's great, I'm sure it's fun. But the point of Oldhammer is to use Warhammer as a creative toolkit to create games with GIANT MONKEY PEOPLE and BRAINS IN TANKS!

That's the revolution

Don't forget giant bronze baby. Everyone always forgets giant bronze baby...

 

[Orjetax]

I always enjoy hearing Zhu's view points and well-researched arguments. Even, and maybe especially, when I disagree. There is always much food for thought.

Zhu, consider the following.

My buddy and I decide to play RT.
We decide we will have a scenario involving defenders making a desperate last stand.
Attackers are orks. Defenders are imperial guard.
We decide to use the point values in Freebooterz and the red compendium respectively.
We go with 1000 points of orks and 500 points of guard, deciding that this well-represents a last stand type scenario.
We play.

Do you consider this to be oldhammer?

Is the answer different if we decide enigmatic Eldar Harlequins are assisting the imperial guard, and so the guard player adds 150 points of harlequins, also from the red book?

Is the answer different if we decide to instead the imperial guard are assisted by a giant monkey for which we generate rules under RT?

Is the answer different if instead of the above, we want approximately equal forces representing a pitched battle, and choose 1000 point armies that completely adhere to the rules regarding army composition?

Is the answer if we have not discussed in advance any narrative?

If these activities are not oldhammer, how would you characterize them?

 

[Orjetax]

And to riff in CC's comment,

"Nobody puts giant bronze baby in the corner."

 

[smiler]

So rather than apply Rogue Trader in a free and creative way, you used another system. That's great, I'm sure it's fun. But the point of Oldhammer is to use Warhammer as a creative toolkit to create games with GIANT MONKEY PEOPLE and BRAINS IN TANKS!

That's the revolution

It's interesting that your focus is on the rules being what Oldhammer is, to me the settings of WFB and RT/40K are what makes Oldhammer unique. No other setting I can think of has the breadth and depth of the 40k universe while still allowing almost limitless creative freedom.

I'm not saying the rules are unimportant, and I definitely agree that playing around with the rules for other settings is only good for the Oldhammer movement, but the ruleset definitely has practical limits. Just as I wouldn't use Labyrinth Lord rules to run a fantasy football game I wouldn't use sci fi rules to run a superhero game. Why put in the extra work and make the rules unrecognisably different when another ruleset fits?

 

[Bluey Zarzov]

So, let's have a look... hmmm.... what system do you use these beauties?

Aah.. Mebbe Necromunda in the "itchy scrotes" gang??

 

[runequester]

I think a gamer should use any tools available. Points values can be a handy starting point.
The discerning GM always utilizes any options available to him or her

Alternatively, simply set up two armies. If both players think they can win, have a go at it. If not, tweak things a bit here and there. This can happen even with points values too.

 

[Zhu Bajie]

I'm not saying the rules are unimportant, and I definitely agree that playing around with the rules for other settings is only good for the Oldhammer movement, but the ruleset definitely has practical limits. Just as I wouldn't use Labyrinth Lord rules to run a fantasy football game I wouldn't use sci fi rules to run a superhero game. Why put in the extra work and make the rules unrecognisably different when another ruleset fits?

Blood Bowl 1st edition uses a minor variation of Warhammer 2nd Ed as it's rules. Superpowers can be classed as special rules and magic like effects. Why put in the extra work to learn a new ruleset, when with a few minor modifcations you can use Oldhammer? Are people really that used to getting everything served up to them on a tray, without having to put in anything themselves?

Sure Rick did a nice job with RT background, but have you read Nemesis the Warlock and Dune? IMHO recycling GWs IP is counter-revolutionary, not saying I don't like it but it's not the heart of the matter.

Orjetax - everything you describe is "Oldhammer", but much of it is equally well supported by later editions, so isn't especially tied to it.

 

[runequester]

Last time I saw so many uses of "counter-revolutionary" I was on a communist forum

 

[Jonas]

So to be an Oldhammer gamer you have to exclusively play Oldhammer? Then I am not an Oldhammer gamer.

My blog was never about Oldhammer and I have never claimed it to be so. I post lot of different projects on my blog, really! Some could be classified as Oldhammer maybe though.

I could use the giant monkey and other super heroes in Rogue Trader, but to me super heroes is not a part of my Rogue Trader universe, so it would be a pretty lousy revolution if taking over the world would mean going from one thing I don't want to another I don't want either.

The "brain in cylinder" guy on the other hand would fit in perfectly with my view on the Rogue Trader setting.

I know it is possible to use anything in a Rogue Trader game/universe, but that doesn't mean I have to.

 

[runequester]

It's eerie how much of this echoes the discussions that took place in the OSR "retro D&D" community a few years ago.

I doubt most people only play retro games. When it comes to table top RPG's, some of my favourite games are old stuff like original D&D, Rolemaster and Runequest but I've also run Burning Wheel, the newest version of GURPS and indie games published online.

Wargaming wise, I enjoy Rogue Trader and 2nd ed Blood Bowl. I also enjoy Chain of Command, 5150 and other games released today.

"Oldhammer" to me, is about a spirit of gaming. A more DYI approach where the rulebook is a starting point, not a religious text.


When the OSR started, the first impulse of a lot of people was to buckle down and declare that only their specific version of D&D ever was good enough and no changes should ever be made to that system. This is of course reactionary in the extreme when the very people who made that system tinkered, experimented and changed it all the damn time. The games were alive and actively developed over the course of many years.

How many vehicle rules does Rogue Trader have?


It's the spirit. Not the letter.

 

[smiler]

Blood Bowl 1st edition uses a minor variation of Warhammer 2nd Ed as it's rules. Superpowers can be classed as special rules and magic like effects. Why put in the extra work to learn a new ruleset, when with a few minor modifcations you can use Oldhammer? Are people really that used to getting everything served up to them on a tray, without having to put in anything themselves?

I totally get where you're coming from, I wouldn't use anything other than a version of OD&D to run an rpg. I started with 2nd ed 40k so the RT rules are less of an existing part of my rules knowledge, I guess that's why I'm more willing to look elsewhere. I still think different rulesets can achieve a different feel. Have you played Infinity? It's so fast and smooth in comparison to 40k and really represents the background on the the tabletop. There's no reason a love of the Oldhammer rulesets and some modern ones can't go hand in hand, just as is the case with miniatures. I suppose the real question I have for you is why should new players use Oldhammer rulesets over anything else?

As for reading I've read the original Dune book but none of the followups and I haven't read Warlock, but I'm aware of the strong influence they had on the setting. The art of Ian Miller and John Blanche are a huge part of how I see the setting and combined with Ricks background I would argue it has become more than the sum of its parts.

 

[area23]

Rogue Trader, situationist detournement, counter revolution! I think I'm going to stay around here. tis not often obscure references like these get appreciated.

Oldhammer for me is all about the miniatures. the internets got me back into minis a decade ago, while this forum and all the blogs is likeminded people enjoying the same miniatures, settings, etc.
Rogue trader isn't so much about nostalgia, but more about finding this feel that so many games and miniatures are missing. A continuation of what I enjoyed since the beginning.
Of course there is the connoisseur in me, my own obsessive need to know which miniature was sculpted by who. But I refuse to pay those ebay prices.

Mark Copplestone is or was involved in this totally abstract intellectual situ wargame, but I forgot the name. Possibly it had a straight connection with Debord even.

 

[smiler]

"Oldhammer" to me, is about a spirit of gaming. A more DYI approach where the rulebook is a starting point, not a religious text.

This, totally this. None of the whiny "you're playing it wrongs" in this community please! The edition wars in D&D were pretty pathetic, I'd hate to see that here.

And to area23 I agree that minis are an important part as the DIY approach is a huge part of creative modelling and painting (as your work shows!). One of things I would define as essential to the Oldhammer movement is the acceptance of all brands of minis, something which sets it apart from GW's current policies and the mentality of a lot of players.

 

[Jonas]

None of the whiny "you're playing it wrongs" in this community please!.

If it ends up that way I am out of here.

I don't care about rules. Rules should be there to support the miniatures you want to use, not dictate what you can and can not do.

To me Oldhammer is the setting and the mentality, the old rules are just were things started and not where it ended.

 

[Zhu Bajie]

I could use the giant monkey and other super heroes in Rogue Trader, but to me super heroes is not a part of my Rogue Trader universe

From my POV, Oldhammer (RT) is a rules set, and an attitude, not a universe. Coming from an old-school RPG background ,the idea that a setting and a rules-set have a 1:1 correlation makes little sense (so often the 'feel' at odds with the 'setting', lookin' at you MERP) sure there is a setting supplied with the rules, but the game can be more open ended, flexible and creative than that - yeah you can use any minis you want not just "Rogue Trader" ones.

I'm not saying I think you MUST play supers, or WWII, or VSF with RT. I'm just saying with some tinkering, you can. I'm also saying that in re-factoring Warhammer into other universes, then you're also doing something creative and in my honest opinion, "revolutionary" as opposed to maintaining the status-quo.

I suppose the real question I have for you is why should new players use Oldhammer rulesets over anything else?

Dunno man, Infinity looks perfectly serviceable for playing Chop-Sokey Kung Foo!

For me it's more about dismantling the apparatus of Warhammer, a semiotic game / culture jam / marxist critique / situationist revolutionary art project.

Mark Copplestone is or was involved in this totally abstract intellectual situ wargame, but I forgot the name. Possibly it had a straight connection with Debord even.

You mean Le Jeu de la Guerre / A Game of War / Kriegspiel? there's an online implementation here: http://r-s-g.org/kriegspiel/ didn't know Copplestone was involved.

Lovely biscuits.