Pygmies, Stereotyping and all that.

[Flippa]

Made me chuckle a little and again it's a stereotype with an element of truth. I have a friend who is English with Irish parentage and I always tease him about being down the pub, he responds "I'm not down the pub that often" my response is "No not for an Irishman, I spose" now 9 times out of 10 when I call him on his mobile he can hardly hear me and there's chinking in the background and on questioning where he is and what he's up to he says... yep you guessed it "Down the pub having a couple of beers with guys from work" Now that means that his English co-workers are down there just as much as he is but then again don't us Brits have a stereotypical image of beer swilling louts? I'm about as far from that as you can get... but I see the humour.

Again no-one speaking out against that, which could be offensive to some. What I find offensive is the constant portrayal of men in adverts. Just watch them and see what bumbling idiots we're made out to be and how many times mum has to rescue stupid dad from himself or making things easier for him.

 

[theottovonbismark]

"us Brits have a stereotypical image of beer swilling louts?"

Not at all , a reputation for humanitarianism and political correctness in fact :

Seriously aren't you the people who invented Stag/Hen parties?

The point about men in adverts is very interesting. The thing about those ads (that I suspect is that the reason they annoy you) is that you are not the demographic. Chances are that they are aimed at ladies who will not view this bumbling male "Dad" persona in the same light at all - they will be pleasantly amused in the way you might be amused by the "Irish Yoga" image. Enjoy that feeling, that's the feeling of being the butt of the joke!

 

[Orjetax]

Irish yoga example made me think.

In the US, that shirt is vastly more likely to be worn by someone of Irish descent.

Likewise, I've been seeing lots if shirts that read "I'm Puerto Rican and I can't keep calm" worn by people of presumably Puerto Rican descent.

Are self-deprecating ethnic humor t-shirts uniquitous in other countries as well?

 

[Asslessman]

Irish yoga example made me think.

In the US, that shirt is vastly more likely to be worn by someone of Irish descent.

Likewise, I've been seeing lots if shirts that read "I'm Puerto Rican and I can't keep calm" worn by people of presumably Puerto Rican descent.

Are self-deprecating ethnic humor t-shirts uniquitous in other countries as well?

I've never seen any french wearing a T-shirt saying "I constantly whine and never brush my teeth" but we have some communities like Brittons (french celts) and people from northern France who seem to be proud of their high consumption of alcohol. The tihng is, I don't think they regard it as something depreciating. Maybe puert-ricans do think that it is cool to be hot-blooded. Maybe americans with irish origins think it's in their roots and that they owe to their ancestors to be drunk .
If you've never seen it, just watch the "sopranos" episode where all the mobsters go to Italy and think they'll find their roots just to realise that they are total strangers to Italy and its culture.

 

[Erny]

There are another 11 pages to be filled with what oldworlders think of newworlders opinions of oldworlders. And probably vice versa.

 

[theottovonbismark]

Maybe americans with irish origins think it's in their roots and that they owe to their ancestors to be drunk .

I think that you have hit the nail on the head, they probably do associate alcohol heavily with their identity. That won't end well

 

[ardyer]

Maybe americans with irish origins think it's in their roots and that they owe to their ancestors to be drunk .

I think that you have hit the nail on the head, they probably do associate alcohol heavily with their identity. That won't end well

I'd say it's actually more university students of non-Irish origin trying to justify (and find humor in) their excessive alcohol consumption.

 

[Chico]

Gah with all this talk of drinking I sure go with a dozen pints right now... I wonder if my heritage is Dwarf

 

[Zhu Bajie]

Hmm. So let's recap

Warhammer uses race as its primary organising principle, racialy segregated armies square off against each other in eternal conflict.

Dwarfs. European Jews, adopting the outward signs of their adoptive culture (norse runes etc.), while retaining stereotypical traits (beards, big noses, love of gold), probably inherited from Tolkien.

Big Hat Chaos Dwarfs. Middle Eastern Jews some historical Assyrian flavour, big hats (large hats being part of Jewish ritual dress, and part of the expected costume of a medieval jew), black hair / beards, hooked noses, small eyes. etc, along with skills in alchemy (black-powder, genetics?) - bit too late in the development Warhammer cycle for me to be all that interested in.

Pygmies. Colonialist African, probably1930s revival of colonialist derived imagery. The post-collonialst cannibal is worth having a look at IMHO http://www.letmefeelyourfingerfirst.com/animation/pcc/ The floating gardens of Bahb-Elonn goes some way towards re contextualising the caricature.

Space Orks, strongly reminiscent of Anti-Germanic WW1 and WW2 propaganda.

And to add another into the mix: Hobgoblins

Are obviously intended to be based on the Japanese, as they have traditional Japanese weapons. There is the distorted facial features (especially the crooked teeth) that are commonly applied in anti-japanese propaganda, example from the Tokyo Kid series below:

I think what's most interesting is that Jack Campbell (the artist) has already 'goblinified' the Tokyo Kid character by giving him pointy ears. Also note the almost exact mock-oriental lettering being used.

 

[theottovonbismark]

lol found another instance of racism.

Warhammer Armies...Bretonains.

They are the only army who get Giant Snails as a host creature! French people so you know...frogs.

They also get to field Giant Frogs unsurprisingly but it's mitigated by the fact that they share that honour with the Slann because you Frog people so you know...frogs.

 

[Asslessman]

lol found another instance of racism.

Warhammer Armies...Bretonains.

They are the only army who get Giant Snails as a host creature! French people so you know...frogs.

They also get to field Giant Frogs unsurprisingly but it's mitigated by the fact that they share that honour with the Slann because you Frog people so you know...frogs.

and you're not even mentioning fashion references and other jokes; At least we can let oursleves loose when reading this part with our harshest french accent (not that our best english one is much better...)

 

[Zhu Bajie]

Lol!, never noticed the frogs and snails hosts before.

Brettonians are a bit of an odd one. They're pretty much styled after everyone in the Hundred Years War, but there doesn't seem to be anything specifically "French" about the design to me, they could be HYW English as well.

 

[Aiteal]

Brets are an odd mix yeah, Haughty French Knights, Plucky English bowmen and a dash of Victorian era Arthurian romance thrown in, but without a doubt they are 'French', right down to being the only Old World Army the Slann mercenaries wouldn't fight for on account of them being 'leg eaters'.
Not sure I would associate the chaos dwarves with Israelites at all, more Assyrians/Babylonians, right down to the re-imagined boar centaurs as Lamassu. In general they contain a mix of many of the old Semetic (in the wider sense) kingdoms, but the oiled beards/hooked noses thing is to be found as stock 'middle-easterners' in lots of fantasy, not least of all in the Pan Tangians. Moorcock, wouldn't be someone to go for the lazy 'evil/primitive foreigners' thing. The Hawkmoon, Black Atilla and Von Bek stories being cases in point.

Hobgoblins, yeah, there are traces of 'Yellow Peril' about them, but the oriental stylings of Hobgoblins would to my mind at least pre-date WH, Keep on the Borderlands for example. For my own money, they are not as nasty and mean spirited as the sort of stuff Dr Seuss was knocking out as Japanese-Americans were being interned. I would be willing to admit that there's a possibility my own viewpoint wrongly gives a bye-ball to the slant eyed psycho imagery of the Hobgoblins in contrast to my immediate gut reaction to the big lipped cannibal thing.

I'll have to break ranks again and say that I absolutely hate Borat, particularly the idea that a stock Eastern European character who fucks his sister and comes from a society of illiterate anti-semitic peasants, who keep livestock in their kitchens, somewhere in one of those 'Stan' countries challenges racism. Aggressively challenging people's learned behaviours is a difficult thing to do, for my money people like Chris Morris and Stewart Lee can pull it off, Cohen too often falls into a blurred middle ground for my tastes.

Drunk Irish stereotypes never bother me, probably because I only get involved in discussions like this after a beer or two, at which point it's hard to feel indignant about the whole thing
If I was overly aggressive in any of my earlier posts I apologise, I certainly don't think that anyone is racist for painting up pygmies.

 

[Zhu Bajie]

You're quite right about the "oriental hobgoblins" having it's roots in D&D. Probably due to proxying historical miniatures for fantasy races and painting Samurai bright orange. The early Aly Morrisson Hobgobs are doubtless following the "Yellow Peril" caricature - but Citadel were also putting out the Oriental Heroes and the Undead Samurai - they weren't tarring them Orientals with the same brush, and it's a shame they didn't flesh out the Southlands with some Massai inspired warriros and some Haitan Zombies to balance out.

The Big Hat Chaos dwarf thing, yes they do have Assyrian cultural elements, but it doesn't stop them being figures that follow many anti-semetic charicatures. Again, it's the broad brush approach, "all semites, middle-easterners are the same aren't they."

 

[Bosco]

I love the pygmy miniatures and actually just picked some up off of ebay.
They were shown precious little love by GW for such an interesting faction.

Don't see what's racist about them.