Pygmies, Stereotyping and all that.

[Zhu Bajie]

Yes, I can totally see how someone might be offended at first glance. I'm just wondering why, when given a reasonable explanation (at least I think of it as reasonable) someone might reasonably oppose the miniatures use. It's the same with the Jewish Dwarves, just because Tolkien used stereotyped ideas about Jews in creating the Dwarves, does this necessarily make the work anti-Semitic? Can a stereotype be separated from it's negative connotations?

 

[Erny]

Because the figures used for a non- offensive purpose are the things that are offensive.

I love pulp gaming and would happily use an evil Chinese mastermind as much as a British one but would hesitate to use a Fu-Manchu figure rather than a historic Chinese figure. In a Victorian setting I would consider a Jewish crime lord why not, some Jews commit crimes but I wouldn't have him look like the derogatory depictions of Jews from 19th & 20th C Europe.

Stop worrying about the fluff behind the miniatures, nobody has objected to that. Just look at the image, big lipped, jet black skin, bone through nose and tell me you honestly see nothing wrong with that?

 

[mbh]

Yes, I can totally see how someone might be offended at first glance. I'm just wondering why, when given a reasonable explanation (at least I think of it as reasonable) someone might reasonably oppose the miniatures use. It's the same with the Jewish Dwarves, just because Tolkien used stereotyped ideas about Jews in creating the Dwarves, does this necessarily make the work anti-Semitic? Can a stereotype be separated from it's negative connotations?

I think a stereotype can be separated but from my perspective this isn't one of those examples. I don't know enough about the Dwarf issue to really comment on that but it's very interesting.

Agree to disagree?

or fight to the death

 

[Zhu Bajie]

Stop worrying about the fluff behind the miniatures, nobody has objected to that. Just look at the image, big lipped, jet black skin, bone through nose and tell me you honestly see nothing wrong with that?

Well I'm not really talking about "fluff" at all I'm talking about the cultural conditions that give rise to the design and the cultural conditions that give rise to the responses to it. There is nothing inherently harmful about any caricature - although of course they are usually 'poking fun' at something. But a symbol can accrue negative connotations by persistently being used in a pejorative manner - I'm not denying that at all. Most (all) cartoonish representations of people are grossly caricatured, but it doesn't follow that they are automatically insulting, generally the offence comes from the meanings ascribed to the symbol - the context in which it is presented - not the thing itself.

I think a stereotype can be separated but from my perspective this isn't one of those examples. I don't know enough about the Dwarf issue to really comment on that but it's very interesting.

Agree to disagree?

or fight to the death

Lol! I think that's fair enough. I'm not fighting, and I'm not sure I disagree with you either, just trying to understand the point of view offered.

 

[Erny]

Fair enough, the caricatures in question have long symbolised racist white opinion of sub-Saharan African. For the majority of the population I don't believe the two can be separated or even if it is worth the effort to try. If dwarf minis were all hook nosed, sidelock wearing, bearded Yiddish stereotypes I would never buy another dwarf.

Do you honestly see nothing wrong with the citadel and Kallistra Pygmy sculpts?

 

[Chico]

Do you honestly see nothing wrong with the citadel and Kallistra Pygmy sculpts?

I don't see anything wrong with them at all if that matters, I don't see the real world when I'm playing with toys.

Oh and I showed my mixed race Nephew who is now 17 and he didn't see what the fuss is about. And I'm pretty sure he can relate to the subject of racism/sterotyping a bit more then middle aged white men.

 

[Erny]

So you also don't see anything wrong with golliwogs?

 

[Flippa]

I don't see anything wrong with Golliwogs, nor do I see anything wrong with white, yellow or any other coloured caricatured dolls and plushies.

 

[Orjetax]

I came late to the party, but wow I'm impressed by this thread. A controversial and sensitive topic, handled with maturity and thoughtfulness. And on the Internet no less. Who knew!

First, I think it's great that there's a segment that 'never realized' or never thought of the pygmies as racist, and viewed them as just another fantasy race. It's really great what that suggests about a move towards a post-racial society.

I think these models can be used without "improper intent" on the part of the gamer or painter. I would not necessarily think ill of someone who painted or games with these. And I feel better about the painted examples seen here than the unpainted sculpts.

The problem is that these sculpts perpetuate negative physical racial stereotypes. The lips -- very, very bad.

I would never buy or game with these. I'm an American, and certainly that impacts my perspective here.

Ultimately, the usual rule of adulthood holds true -- if others could reasonably be offended by our actions, we ought to consider the context and circumstances carefully.

 

[Flippa]

In all fairness what people do and don't find offensive is purely down to their own viewpoint, for example... creating a race of pygmies with big lips and stereotypical Black features appears to offend some people yet making a race of stunted, big nose jewish style models with ringlet black hair like this

doesn't seem to cause the same stir.

I for one just don't get it? Plenty of things offend me but there's nothing I can do about it and whilst racism is abhorrent in all forms I don't think you can apply that to model soldiers. I for one find Justin Bieber highly offensive and boy bands as well but there's bugger all I can do about it.

 

[Erny]

Problem is that isn't what happened is it. Nobody created a brand new fantasy race called pygmies they merely cut and pasted the centuries old negative stereotype that already existed. Its the miniature equivalent of Bong Bongo land.

As there are no Babylonians or Assyrians alive today I don't see who is being victimized by the big hat Dwarves. I don't like them personally but I just don't see the same level of wanton disregard for the continued propagation of offensive imagery. Remember the golliwog was dropped by Robinson's for a reason, the Kia-Ora ad was dropped for a reason, Tintin in the Congo has warnings on it for a reason, Herge even expressed his own dissatisfaction with the imagery he produced in the 60's for the reissue of the book.

A caricature is fine, particularly if it is mildly poking fun at an individual. A copy of a caricature that has been used fro hundreds of years against a whole section of society that has long bee oppressed and marginalized, where the caricature itself was part of the oppression and marginalisation. Well that's just lazy and offensive.

Justin Bieber has never oppressed you, your family or your community but if you think it is comparable to centuries of racial oppression who am I to stop you.

As to Borat, word fail me, the target of his humor isn't the Jewish people or the Kazakhs. It's the people that go along for the ride we are laughing at. The world is divided into those who laugh at Baron Cohen's characters and those who laugh at those laughing.

 

[Padre]

I think the Borat picture was put there to show a contrast (actually the similarity in offensiveness) of the big head to the chaos dwarf. Not because Borat is espousing any sort of bigotry. He, of course, was mocking such.

I think Orjetax got closest to the mark:

First, I think it's great that there's a segment that 'never realized' or never thought of the pygmies as racist, and viewed them as just another fantasy race. It's really great what that suggests about a move towards a post-racial society.

I am in that category. I saw a fantasy race, with infantile features like hobbits (ie another race of 'little men'). I didn't see racism. I even did a picture once of them in a game with my baby boy sat next to them saying he was their god. I thought of them as supposedly child like. I saw exaggerated features, but it never occurred to me that they were any different from the exaggerated features on elves, halflings, ogres, dwarfs, gnomes etc. I didn't see these things because racism has never been a part of my environment. I am aware of it's existence, in the world today as well as the past. Aware of its ugliness and the importance of taking it seriously, in the way that I am aware of the ugliness of militaristic religious fundamentalism (without experiencing it directly in my own environment ever). I am happily a member of a (hopefully) emerging 'post-racial' society.

Thus it was I was genuinely surprised to discover some folk thinks one of the toy soldier fantasy races is a manifestation of racism. I do see what they're saying now, but did not before this debate because none of those ugly thoughts crossed my mind. I also never thought of dwarfs as influenced by any sort of anti-semitism. I have recently represented them as moneylenders (and wizards) in my Tilean game, because they are meant to be obsessed with gold (mining it, hoarding it, guarding it, using it), and I wanted them to have a role in the cities beyond the usual one of civil-engineers and gunners and armourers etc - more depth. I also wanted fantasy equivalents for all sorts of real history roles. I am a medieval historian by education.

This whole debate is making me afraid to write any sort of background for fantasy races, and not just the evil ones!

 

[Asslessman]

This whole debate is making me afraid to write any sort of background for fantasy races, and not just the evil ones!

Then this is a sad thing. The fact that you're above the stereotypes and didn't see the offense they represent to some is indeed a good thing which shows some f us have moved on (totally adhere to Orjetax' post-racial society's point).
Being afraid to play with archetypes means racist win in the end because it means they confiscate those archetypes (even if they created some or most). I want my dwarves to love money and I refuse to accept this links them to jews because real jews are juts like anyone else. However, I do see how this links them to the old antismetic views but as I consider this bullcrap, I don't give a thing about it.

 

[Padre]

Thanks for that, Asslessman, it's good to know common sense can rule. Your post is spot on. I too think racism is bullcrap and I don't want to give racists power by being afraid of making up fantasy races with fantasy traits. All people are the same in that all individuals are different! But fantasy worlds, books and games, and films like Star Wars, Star Trek and Babylon 5 etc etc, do have different identifiable races of sentient beings. It's all fun, and doesn't have to reflect the real world. I'm not saying aspects don't reflect the real world, just that they don't have to. If I want magical, stone age, southern world hobbits, then why not? If I failed to think of the figures as anything but fantastical representations of fake-world inhabitants, just like goblins and ogres, then that shouldn't be too much of a surprise considering the minimal impact racism has had on my life and thoughts.

 

[theottovonbismark]

I want my dwarves to love money and I refuse to accept this links them to jews because real jews are juts like anyone else. However, I do see how this links them to the old antismetic views but as I consider this bullcrap, I don't give a thing about it.

Exactly, when you come at it from the point of view of a person who believes that people are equal then you should never be never really be offended by racist imagery. I am of the school of thought that encourages taking offensive things from reality and turning them on their head in with the power of comedy, something along the lines of Mel Brooks:

"I was never crazy about Hitler...If you stand on a soapbox and trade rhetoric with a dictator you never win...That's what they do so well: they seduce people. But if you ridicule them, bring them down with laughter, they can't win. You show how crazy they are. ”
—Mel Brooks, in an August 2001 interview

On that note...my old warboss Heimlick:

 

[Erny]

No problem with ridiculing those with power or those who work to oppress others what so ever. It is when ridicule is aimed at an oppressed people that I have a problem. We are not yet living in a post racial utopia.

 

[theottovonbismark]

True, but then we never will live in any kind of a Utopia and there has to come a point when your culture has to let go of that stuff. When exactly that time is I suppose is determined by majority reaction to the racist imagery.

At this stage most Irish people would not be offended by this:

Having said that it is still always possible to use material like this in certain hate mongering contexts which can generate offense in some people, so it's actually a grey area really. To offend a modern Irish person with this stuff you would really have to go out of your way to do so is my point.

If I were to decide to sculpt a line of "Oirish" models am I a self hating Irishman or am I poking fun at the old stereotyped thinking of the past? Depends on the context I present them in really and the audience they are presented to.

 

[Asslessman]

I agree with you and as Chico said, we are quite lucky as far as racism is concerned, the jokes and prejudices irish get or french or whatever pales in front of what black, arabs, muslims, jews have had to endure. We can cope with it because we basically don't get much. I really like to be able to joke about this sort of things with my black/muslims/jew/gay/whatever oppressed group friends but when they tire of such jokes, I do understand and leave them aside (jokes not friends...).
I've always thought humour is when the other guy laughs, not when I do (and I suspect many people feel the same here)

 

[Zhu Bajie]

And let's face it there isn't much irony or satire about the Chaos Dwarves or Pygmies (Floating Gardens excepted, there is something different going on there), they are just reproducing the stereotypes.

It's quite astonishing how almost exactly the same characters as Chaos Dwarfs are being used in an anti-semetic way today.

Skulls for the Skull Hat! or something, and on a historical note, Assyrians are semites, maybe different to Jews, but it's called anti-Semitism for a reason, lumping them all together is part of how stereotyping works.

The problem with promulgating racist stereotypes is that whilst we, personally, might be above such matters, they will be read as "racist" by racists, and will see the argument "it's all just fun and games" will be seen as complicity with their viewpoints. Actively subverting those views, well then yes, maybe we're on to something interesting.

Similarly racists love things like Star Trek where aliens are shown as "racial monocultures" - all Klingons are Warlike, all Ferengi are Greedy, all Jews are... etc. because it supports their way of organising the world. Although I will go on to say that Trek, Starwars, B5 have at their heart a multi-cultural team of heroes, who are distinct, and contrasted against a the undifferentiated mass of alien others. Warhammer (3rd ed onwards) doesn't do that, it has racially segregated armies.

 

[Asslessman]

The problem with promulgating racist stereotypes is that whilst we, personally, might be above such matters, they will be read as "racist" by racists, and will see the argument "it's all just fun and games" will be seen as complicity with their viewpoints. Actively subverting those views, well then yes, maybe we're on to something interesting.

You make a point, I have to agree that "mainstreaming" (no better word for this) those archetypes (even to make fun of it or use it with no second thought) tends to diminish their historical weight, it makes them become "normal" a bit too rapidly for those who still suffer from them...