Commercial use of the term "Oldhammer"

[Zhu Bajie]

Mick Leach of Eastern Front Miniatures is advertising his forthcoming range of miniatures as "Oldhammer style miniatures" on Facebook.

The Oldhammer community has a long and sometimes fractious history of being community led, and the name and concept of "Oldhammer" being community owned. Many of us have invested a lot of time, passion and creativity in making Oldhammer the cool weird thing it is today. As far as I know this is the first time a commercial enterprise has used the term "Oldhammer" in a with specific reference to wargames miniatures. This has legal implications under trademark law, meaning the community may at some point in the future lose the right to use the term however you see fit, and stopping other commercial entities from using the term. I'm not saying that is Micks business plan, but this is a commercial reality.

I know there are several people very sensitive to the commercialisation of our "movement", and many that don't really care about or understand the business or community sides. However I do think the community needs to send out a clear message one way or another. Just to be clear, this isn't about whether we like or dislike the project or the miniatures - these things can continue without the commercial use of the term Oldhammer. it is purely about whether you approve the use of the term "Oldhammer" in a commercial sense in our core area of wargaming miniatures production.

So... Oldhammer Approved or Not Approved

 

[redben]

If the community doesn't TM the term then is it the case we'd be helpless to stop anyone from using the term to promote a line of a products regardless of whether we approve or not?

 

[Zhu Bajie]

In fact trademarks don't have to be registered at all, they can be established purely by use (which is what the community is doing every time we use the term in context, on the forum, on your blogs, in your ebay trades). The community can protect the name without registering it if we choose to, it would be a much harder job to do so through the courts, but not impossible. I don't think we're going to go there

Also consider that your approval is a worthy thing to have. It is difficult to quantify, but the brand has value.

 

[Mutantdale]

I approve of commercial use as long as they are polite enough to ask first.. If the case above for Mike his minis fit the bill nicely so I do not see a problem.

MD

 

[redben]

I suppose my question was more along the lines of what if we disapprove of someone using it? What would or could we do stop it?

 

[Asslessman]

I am really liking what Mike's project but if I refer to the oldhammer contract, I believe all miniatures are "oldhammer" since this movement refers to the early editions of wharhammer and to a certain ethos (bringing the GM back being part of it) and not about models, but this is not about defining what this movement is.
What I mean is that a model range is not particularly "oldhammer". It's just "oldschool" because it uses old references and famous names from the old days but "oldhammer" can only define a game or way to play. Orelse, what would be the criterias to define a "oldhammer" model and a "non-oldhammer" model?, number of skullz on it?, the scale? preslotta or not? CA Designed or hand sculpted alone?

I approve beacuse Mike has involved the community a lot so it doesn't look he's bearing ill-intentions (and the models are good ...).

If in the future, someone was to try to steal the mark from us, I would gladly leave him the name for it is just a name but I would make sure to rain sxxt on him and that his reputation does come out untouched... That said, I'm the kind to wait for pain before crying so that's just my 2 cents here.

 

[Zhu Bajie]

I approve of commercial use as long as they are polite enough to ask first...

That didn't happen... hence the poll now.

I suppose my question was more along the lines of what if we disapprove of someone using it? What would or could we do stop it?

You'd have to question the integrity of someone using it without community approval wouldn't you.

What I mean is that a model range is not particularly "oldhammer". It's just "oldschool" because it uses old references and famous names from the old days but "oldhammer" can only define a game or way to play. Orelse, what would be the criterias to define a "oldhammer" model and a "non-oldhammer" model?, number of skullz on it?, the scale? preslotta or not? CA Designed or hand sculpted alone?

Indeed, once we have cleared approval we can on how that approval is best related.

 

[redben]

I suppose my question was more along the lines of what if we disapprove of someone using it? What would or could we do stop it?

You'd have to question the integrity of someone using it without community approval wouldn't you.

Are you implying this is what Mick has done? Either way, I'm still not sure what we would do to stop anyone using the term.

 

[Zhu Bajie]

I suppose my question was more along the lines of what if we disapprove of someone using it? What would or could we do stop it?

You'd have to question the integrity of someone using it without community approval wouldn't you.

Are you implying this is what Mick has done? Either way, I'm still not sure what we would do to stop anyone using the term.

Not at all, I'd rather say that we are ensuring approval has been given (or not) now, with a reasonable, democratic process.

We'd politely ask people to desist, and if they were honourable individuals they would conceed.

 

[redben]

And if they didn't would we boycott them or would we pursue a TM infringment case and boycott them?

 

[witchfinderingeneral]

I think that in Mick's case the use of the term in a commercial sense is acceptable given that he is quite an active member of the community and as for not having asked I'm sure he hadn't foreseen this as being an issue. Now on the other hand I am opposed to the term becoming a brand name, it's more a philosophy than a tangible, purchasable item, if you get where I'm coming from. Might be talking out the other end of my torso but that's my two cents.

 

[Grumdril]

... I believe all miniatures are "oldhammer" since this movement refers to the early editions of wharhammer and to a certain ethos (bringing the GM back being part of it) and not about models...

I agree with Asslessman's comment - Oldhammer should be about the game and how you it play, not the models you use. In fact the very last thing I think this community should be implying is that you need to play the game with certain models (sound like any company we know...?). Which is why I think the The "How to do Oldhammer" Thread is so great.

I've sat on the fence and not voted in the poll, because I don't like the idea of approving or disapproving the application of the label to a line of miniatures. I do kind of think it's missing the point though, whether on an eBay advert or in the context being discussed here.

That being said, I love the look of some of the models that Eastern Front Miniatures are planning to produce (and can take or leave some of the others). And most of my eBaying is of old Citadel lead. But equally I've scoured the website of pretty much every 28mm fantasy miniature manufacturer (I think) and am delighted when I find models which fit with my idea of what an army I'm collecting should look like. I just have to try not to buy them due to the glacial pace of my painting...


Paul / Grumdril

 

[Mister Rab]

I've voted "yes" because I have no objection, mainly because I feel that I/we don't own the term. My only very slight concern is that if it becomes attached to a particular range of figures then it could, potentially, suggest that there is a One True Range of figures.... something that I suspect drove many other oldhammerers away from the no-longer-loving embrace of That Company.

With that jumble of thoughts in mind, perhaps I shouldn't have voted at all

Either way, I can't wait to give Mick my money. For my aesthetic approach to oldhammer chaos, the figures being sculpted are perfect... and I'll use them along several other ranges from different sculptors and eras.


Afterthought: I'm not even sure who coined it in the first place (Erny? Zhu? A.N.Other awesome blogger?) but I suppose it's up to them.

 

[Galadrin]

Eh I don't see this as such a big deal. As long as no one is copyrighting it and it is free to use by everyone, I don't feel that Oldhammer has been "commercialized." Has "old school" or "old school renaissance" roleplaying been commercialized, just because many of the independent, startup publishers use the term? I think not.

 

[Exarch]

Having followed Mick's work on the project on Facebook and reading posts here and there within the community I registered today to vote "yes" for a number of reasons.

Mick has gone to great pains to work within the community to make this project harken back to what inspired and made so many of us happy. He's hired names we know and love to get the "feel" of the miniature right and also taken feedback to make changes to the models. He's making these models for us as a community because, frankly, no one else is.

That last point underpins a lot of what I appreciate about Mick's efforts. He's certainly been above board and straight forward about his efforts and so far nothing I've seen publicly would lead me to believe he's attempting to claim ownership of the term "Oldhammer" or corner the market of its use. He's trying to listen to hobbyists and provide something they want.

I've no idea who owns the "OSR" Term or Trademark but if there is really that much concern for how Oldhammer is going to be used going forward sort it out and grant Mick a license or usage permit. In a phone conversation with Mick a few weeks ago it was clear to me the models wouldn't be blistered or packaged as "Oldhammer" products but I think, after all of the time, money and work he's put into the products, he's certainly earned our support and the right to market the products to the community.

We all want nice things. When someone makes an effort to provide those nice things we need to encourage that and reward their efforts, not dash water on them and discourage others from attempting to bring us nice things. I've seen that last bit before and when it occurs I'm saddened and have less nice things.

Thanks,

Jim Kitchen

 

[Porkaborg]

I voted no , I don't think anything commercial belongs on the forum at all , wether its painting services or new miniatures. Where do we draw the line in the future?

 

[redben]

This isn't so much about using the forum commercially as using the term "Oldhammer" in a commercial context regardless of where it occurs.

I have no issue with Mick or anyone else using Oldhammer to market a line of minis. Realistically the community is never going to pursue legal ownership of it nor legal remedy to its use by others. We'll do what we would have done anyway, which is self-police. If we think there's a worthy commercial use of it then we'll naturally support it, and if we feel someone is using it in an unworthy manner than we'll naturally not support it. If the community isn't supported a commercial initiative using the term then it isn't going to be successful, or if it is it won't be because they're using Oldhammer. Even if someone TM's it, it's hardly going to impact anything the community does. Warhammer.org has managed to survive despite that name belonging to the most litigious company in our industry.

 

[antipixi]

I think that in Mick's case the use of the term in a commercial sense is acceptable given that he is quite an active member of the community and as for not having asked I'm sure he hadn't foreseen this as being an issue.

I totally agree with this statement. Particularly as many on this forum have clearly stated their appreciation of the miniatures.

I've voted "yes" because I have no objection, mainly because I feel that I/we don't own the term. My only very slight concern is that if it becomes attached to a particular range of figures then it could, potentially, suggest that there is a One True Range of figures.... something that I suspect drove many other oldhammerers away from the no-longer-loving embrace of That Company….

...Either way, I can't wait to give Mick my money. For my aesthetic approach to oldhammer chaos, the figures being sculpted are perfect... and I'll use them along several other ranges from different sculptors and eras.

This too.

I am happy for cool miniatures inspired by 'Oldhammer' imagery to be described as such. For a start it will make searching for new toys much more straight forward!

 

[Fimm McCool]

I vote approval. But could we register it as Creative Common and specify some terms to prevent hijacking or misuse?

 

[Ant4812]

I vote yes. It doesn't really bother me one way or the other if Mick's just using the word "Oldhammer" as a descriptive term.