Commercial use of the term "Oldhammer"

[phreedh]

I really don't care about either "misuse" or "hijacking". As redben said, even if some corporate entity would end up owning the rights to Oldhammer, it won't affect our individual hobby endeavours and that's what make up the community. No label. Sometimes I feel people attach too strong a meaning and importance to the term "Oldhammer". Paint, game, collect and post on this forum - that's what it boils down to.

 

[Auretious Taak]

I vote yes. It doesn't really bother me one way or the other if Mick's just using the word "Oldhammer" as a descriptive term.

Until he trademarks it and decides to sue everyone who is using it as part of their blogs or otherwise without permission regardless of whether said blogs were up well before he trademarked it. Ever seen GW issue notices that they will sue the living bajeesus out of a blogger if they continue using the terminology without approval? I've seen it countless times over the years and one thing is for sure, GW's legal department are a bunch of C*&^S who do their job well regardless of what the person being targetted actually is doing with the legal trade marked terminology.

Whether or not this Mick chap does it or not is not what is being asked by the OP here. It's whether the implications that the term is indeed trade markable (games-workshop for example can't trade mark a bunch of common used terms like space marine iirc because so many companies use them already and it was well established in science fiction long before hand) and whether we as a community believe in its' use as a commercially trademarked piece of property and if not then what are we as a community prepared to do about it. I was one of the few that voted 'no' with this in mind.

 

[dieselmonkey]

Short of someone trademarking it, there's nothing anyone can do about it's use. It's currently a generic term for a style of collecting/gaming/sculpting, so anyone's free to use it as they wish. To me it's the same as 'Heroic Scale' or 'True 25mm', it's descriptive more than anything.

Even if someone in the 'community' did register it, they'd be unable to enforce it's 'appropriate' use without resorting to lawyers, so that's a non-starter.

Also, I think if someone in the gaming industry tried to register it, they'd get stomped on by GW, as it (essentially) references their product, and is a derivative of it. Whether GW would have a leg to stand on is a different matter, but it's probably enough to put most people off the thought.

In short, I voted Yes. It's a descriptive term, people can use it as they wish.

 

[redben]

Until he trademarks it and decides to sue everyone who is using it as part of their blogs or otherwise without permission regardless of whether said blogs were up well before he trademarked it. Ever seen GW issue notices that they will sue the living bajeesus out of a blogger if they continue using the terminology without approval? I've seen it countless times over the years and one thing is for sure, GW's legal department are a bunch of C*&^S who do their job well regardless of what the person being targetted actually is doing with the legal trade marked terminology.

I've seen GW issue C&D's to sites which publish leaks but not to ones which incorporate terminology they TM. Do you have a link to one/have you personally experienced it through using "Tyranid" in the title of your blog?

TM's only exist to prevent marketplace confusion and any owner of the "Oldhammer" TM would have to show they are either losing sales or others are gaining sales based on its use by others. As dieselmonkey says, the strongest claim to marketplace confusion and TM infringement would belong to GW even if they don't own the TM themselves as it clearly trades off their most prominent TM.

 

[phreedh]

Until he trademarks it and decides to sue everyone who is using it as part of their blogs or otherwise without permission regardless of whether said blogs were up well before he trademarked it.

First of all, that's nutty tin-foil hat talk. Second, what would it matter? Not one iota. It's just a term. We're united by a common interest that in no way is connected to what term we use to describe it. I would still play the games I play, collect and paint the minis I do now. Same thing for everybody else here. I did it before the Oldhammer term was coined and I'll continue doing it after this forum is shut down. I don't use the term to describe my endeavours, as a matter of fact the only time I talk about "Oldhammer" is in discussions such as this, where the term is the object of discussion.

What GW does isn't even relevant to this discussion so please don't derail the thread with interwebs anecdotes regarding how fast GW legal shut down this or that.

 

[Zhu Bajie]

What does it matter? Well, on the one hand I can't answer for everyone, nor can I say that everything does or should have the same meaning to all people. On the other hand, having a common language, a flag has brought people together, and some people see value in that, some may have emotional investment in that, and some people will resist that being used to market products. I'm not saying anyone is right or wrong, but I think we can respect differing views.

There is nothing generic about Oldhammer, it would be generic if we were discussing old hammers, or if Apple sold apples rather than computers. As it is, it has distinctness, and isn't a simple generic or industry description.

Redben is completely correct, GW could make a case that Oldhammer dilutes their major brand, and I think that should make people wary of using it as a term to promote or identify miniatures.

It's certainly very interesting seeing such a wide variety of approaches and responses. Mick has decided to redraft his description, and is no doubt very happy with the support shown for his project.

 

[tp_1983]

I voted yes.

They are cool minis, and I can see no real cons to having them assoiciated with the Oldhammer movement, or vice versa.

The real problem comes down to the age old question 'what is Oldhammer?' To some people it is all about trhe attidtude, to some the rules, and to others the miniatures. To my mind it's:

Oldhammer (n) Of, or pertaining to, the rules, miniatures and ephemera produced by Games Workshop upto circa 1994.

So that can be the actual rules, minaitures etc, or other rules and miniatures which are based on the same underlying sensibilites.

I don't really understand those people that moan about people promoting commercial ventures on this forum. The very hobby relies on people buying miniatures, is it such a crime to inform people you think might be interersted of stuff you produce?
It's not as if the forum has been high-jacked by a big commercial entity, those that are produced 'oldhammer' figures seem to be pretty much part of the community, and are producing miniatures that are needed (wanted) by the community.

If people are worried about the term being used with out any control then one approach would be to have an 'Oldhammer Approved' status that the forum could vote on for certain miniatures/ranges.

 

[Zhu Bajie]

Oldhammer (n) Of, or pertaining to, the rules produced by Games Workshop upto circa 1991.

Fixed it for ya

 

[Aiteal]

Voted yes.
Ultimately the models that would be 'branded' Oldhammer would be so to be aimed at a certain demographic.
If we don't like, we don't buy, the real vote would be with our wallets.
I am conscious however that my opinion is from someone that gravitated towards the oldhammer reef, something that owed so much to others early work and who would understandably be more protective of the name.

 

[Orlygg]

We have now learnt that the term Oldhammer predates this community.

http://forums.tauonline.org/introdu...ve-tau-oldhammer-player-coming-back-play.html

And that the term has been used inside GW to describe fans of earlier versions of the game unofficially. Again, predating this community.

So no one 'owns' the term really. Antiquis Malleum will not be using the term in any commercial way. If you want more detail check the facebook group as the discussion on this issue is more detailed than here. Mick is very grateful for all the support that he has seen on the forum but he was rather shocked by the need for the discussion and poll in the first place. He is just a member of our community trying to get models on our tables.

 

[ardyer]

We have now learnt that the term Oldhammer predates this community.

http://forums.tauonline.org/introdu...ve-tau-oldhammer-player-coming-back-play.html

And that the term has been used inside GW to describe fans of earlier versions of the game unofficially. Again, predating this community.

So no one 'owns' the term really. Antiquis Malleum will not be using the term in any commercial way. If you want more detail check the facebook group as the discussion on this issue is more detailed than here. Mick is very grateful for all the support that he has seen on the forum but he was rather shocked by the need for the discussion and poll in the first place. He is just a member of our community trying to get models on our tables.

And that it apparently also applies to 3rd edition 40k

 

[Orlygg]

We have now learnt that the term Oldhammer predates this community.

http://forums.tauonline.org/introdu...ve-tau-oldhammer-player-coming-back-play.html

And that the term has been used inside GW to describe fans of earlier versions of the game unofficially. Again, predating this community.

So no one 'owns' the term really. Antiquis Malleum will not be using the term in any commercial way. If you want more detail check the facebook group as the discussion on this issue is more detailed than here. Mick is very grateful for all the support that he has seen on the forum but he was rather shocked by the need for the discussion and poll in the first place. He is just a member of our community trying to get models on our tables.

And that it apparently also applies to 3rd edition 40k

I thought that was amusing too!

 

[Zhu Bajie]

We have now learnt that the term Oldhammer predates this community.

http://forums.tauonline.org/introdu...ve-tau-oldhammer-player-coming-back-play.html

And that the term has been used inside GW to describe fans of earlier versions of the game unofficially. Again, predating this community.

So no one 'owns' the term really. Antiquis Malleum will not be using the term in any commercial way. If you want more detail check the facebook group as the discussion on this issue is more detailed than here. Mick is very grateful for all the support that he has seen on the forum but he was rather shocked by the need for the discussion and poll in the first place. He is just a member of our community trying to get models on our tables.

And that it apparently also applies to 3rd edition 40k

And worse than that, it's the bloody Tau!

 

[Count Von Bruno]

Or "shooty fishmen" as I now like to call them (thanks Chico )

I vote yes, it goes without saying I don't feel any ownership of the Oldhammer name or anything (it seems it belongs to that bloke with the Tau anyway)...

 

[mbh]

^^^
Ha


I didn't vote bc I can't see how this matters

 

[Naagruz]

What's a Tau? Is it like Tao? A race of monks?

 

[Erny]

We have now learnt that the term Oldhammer predates this community.

http://forums.tauonline.org/introdu...ve-tau-oldhammer-player-coming-back-play.html

And that the term has been used inside GW to describe fans of earlier versions of the game unofficially. Again, predating this community.

So no one 'owns' the term really. Antiquis Malleum will not be using the term in any commercial way. If you want more detail check the facebook group as the discussion on this issue is more detailed than here. Mick is very grateful for all the support that he has seen on the forum but he was rather shocked by the need for the discussion and poll in the first place. He is just a member of our community trying to get models on our tables.

Surely it is an association with this community (on all media) that is being referenced by Mick not a term used by some chap once, a little earlier than Zhu or anecdotally by GW some time in the past? As such it is an interesting question to ask of the people that make the community what it is whether it be the facebook group or the bloggers and the forum that group grew out of. If theere are details we've missed here please do enlighten us.

For my part I get the association, they probably don't get much more old school warhammer than Mick's miniatures but it isn't without precedent for GW to shut down sites so it's right we discuss this. We then or rather now know our answer.

 

[tp_1983]

There is a company called DarkHammer miniature which doesn't seem to have been served a C&D yet.

 

[Erny]

They aren't professing any link to warhammer. We and by extension any company associating themselves with us are.

 

[theottovonbismark]

What's a Tau? Is it like Tao? A race of monks?

The Tau that can be told is not the eternal Tau - DJ 10ng-5trike

"I'm gonna rock you like a brand new codex. Time to drop the beat, hammerhead-style."