Yay extremely picky: is war gaming a sport?

ManicMan

ManicMan

Lord
cause I love minor little picky things, I was watching an old episode of Family Fortunes (A UK game show based on the USA game show 'Family Feud' which lasted from 1980 (hosted by Bob Monkhouse, then Max Bygraves, then Les Dennis) till 2002 then it was cancelled.. or replaced with increasing bad hosts, bad sets, stupid changes and kinda became a insult.. but nevermind). Anyway, One question was asking for the top 5 or so TV sports as named by there survey.

Well.. I wondered about Chess, as that used to be shown on TV.. but then I started to wonder, Is chess a sport? it is a game, but what IS the difference between a game and a sport? I mean, Mike Batt said that Snooker/billiards is only a game, but others call it a sport.. So Lets find out.

I checked online and went to the Britannica dictionary which... doesn't seam that good and is really weirdly written but seams to be trying to help people who don't have English as a first language, so a pretty okay source.

well.. it claims they are both similar and that the difference is you do a game for pleasure, and in sport you compete against each other... yet it does also say that games include contests.. Like how the highland games are a contest of games, and not a sport.

So... so you need to compete against each other for it to be a sport? mmm.. first thing that arises from that is 'team sports'.. you don't compete against each other, just one team vs another.. And surely you want to have fun if you are doing it. Lawn tennis is seen as a Sport, does it just become NOT a sport if you are having fun? So I think we can remove the idea of having fun as part of it.. So when you look at the exact wording and remove words which are on both side (as in valid for Games and Sports) we come down to Competing.. the Difference between a game and sport is in a sport you compete against others. In a game you don't.

Well.. It depend on how you play but.. War gaming mostly have you compete against each other. Lets look at what Competing is.. "Striving against one another to gain or win something".. Yep, War gaming is a sport! again, depends on the game but still.. OH, we have the word Striving? which means "to make great effort to achieve something".. Again, depends on your style of play but yep.. War Gaming is a sport! I'm debating Hero Quest cause I normally play it where, while as DM I can win, it's more to make it enjoyable for the heroes then to directly beat them at all costs.

Anyone want to try to throw any other 'confirmed' meanings of 'Sport' vs 'Game' to try and disagree with me? or to confirm my idea? ^_^ discussion!
 
Ah, doesn't HAVE to. Apart from mental exertion, Snooker is a sport and doesn't have much more physical exertion then moving metal figures around ^_^ Again, Chess is officially stated as a sport.

The Physical exertion in Snooker and Chess isn't much difference then in war gaming
 
from Chess.com: Is Chess a Sport?
www.chess.com

Is Chess A Sport?

Chess is both a game, and a sport! Here are ten ways that chess is a sport: 1. Chess is physically demanding. Chess players do not compete based on athletic prowess, but it is essential for elite chess players to be in excellent physical shape. Games between elite players often last 7, 8, or...
www.chess.com www.chess.com
1) Chess is Physically demanding. basically saying because Elite players can take 7 - 9hours for a game, that it's physically demanding. depending on the rule set and players, Elite (if you want to use that term) war games can take that
2) Chess is competitive. Already covered
3) Chess demands Skill. So does winning war games and doing it well. They kind say it's only a sport if you can be 'professional'... Well, for years people in the UK couldn't make a living (thus being professional) at darts.. It was only the mid 80s that things started to change. while Top snooker players can win alot of money from tournaments, you make more and a living on the side to them
4) Chess players have a sportsmanship with etiquette.. again, War gaming.. In fact, War gaming basically comes OUT of chess.
5) Chess is recognized as a sport.. That's cheating! "It's a sport cause it's recognized as a sport".. I won't accept such rubbish..
6) Chess is universal.. its a sport cause the rules are translated into a bunch of languages? ehuh.. War gaming again does that
7) Chess is a mind sport.. That quote wiki "A mind sport is a game of skill where the mental exercise component is more significant than the physical." Ah, so Physical isn't a needed thing for it being a sport.. game of skill with more mental exercise.. See war gaming!
8) Chess Inspires Nation Fervor.. Oh piss off.. What DOESN'T
9) Chess has doping controls.. OH it's a sport cause people can get in trouble for taking substances which people call aids, whither illigeal or not.. erm.. again, I don't think I buy this one.
10) .. it's a joke which I don't under stand.. "Giant. Bullet. Chess." What the hell does that mean?

So.. the only things here are other people recognize it as a sport, and they are substances which you can get in trouble for taking when playing.. ehuh..
 
Chess has very simple rules but is extremely difficult to get good at. Nothing is left to chance or luck.

Wargaming has complex rules but is pretty easy to get good at. Luck and chance are a major part.

Sports for the most part have their rules set in stone.
Sports are generally good for spectators.
Sports are both physically and mentally demanding.

Just take a look at the players, have a good look at the people rolling dice and the people doing sports. That's surely the answer there. An athlete may excel in one sport but will still likely blow away me or you in ANY sport.

Every gw or hobby shop I've ever been in has been full of losers, fat greasy men, smelly kids and total geeks. Sorry but that's just how it is. It's the people that turned me off the gaming side of Warhammer. And where are the girls? All of those shops are sausage parties. Thank the lord for the internet!

I don't think wargaming is or ever will be a sport.

Of course not every Wargamer is a fat greasy loser. And not every sportsman is in peak physical condition. I'd have had the late Andy Fordham down as a gamer and not a past darts world champion and I would have beat him i'm sure at nearly every other sport LOL

Interesting topic. No offence intended. Just my two pence on it.
 
Clio said:
Wargaming has complex rules but is pretty easy to get good at. Luck and chance are a major part.
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Depends on the game and rule set.

Clio said:
Sports for the most part have their rules set in stone.
Sports are generally good for spectators.
Sports are both physically and mentally demanding.
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well, atleast we can agree football isn't a sport then. They change the rules quite a bit each year. Many sports have pretty big changes. well, depending on how into the sport you are. Some of the 'basic' rules never change.. Like lot of rule sets where the basics never change.

Being good for Spectators? depends.. I've said how I really enjoyed the TV show Battleground, which was a series which televised wargames for people to watch and enjoy, One of the reasons I think it failed was by having to cut it down into 'highlights' that fit in the 30 min time slot, more then the full game.

as for both Physically and mentally demanding. So anything which talks about Mind sports needs to be thrown out as mind sports should not be classed as sports even though they are? and pretty much anything where the only physically demanding part is just the stamina needed for long hours needs to be discounted? which (I know my chess ELO is only 512, but I don't play in anything which can score it much.. and I am limited by how many moves in various paths ahead is see.. which is something I think anyone that plays against me with war gaming may notice. I can see a few paths ahead, I can plan out a few moves but I have slight problems if all my plans are upset and I need to think quickly to plan a new path while taking into view the whole situation) means Chess shouldn't be included.. and you can probebly remove snooker.. In fact, did you know alot of card games are officially sports? Poker is officially a sport. so.. yikes.

Clio said:
Just take a look at the players, have a good look at the people rolling dice and the people doing sports.
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never played dice-less war games? there are a quite a few of them around ^_^ and many war games which doesn't really have too much luck.. well, more then something like Snooker, or darts where you need to be lucky.. Hell, John Virgo has commented a number of times about snooker players being lucky.. so has Ronnie and if you want to say neither of them know what they are talking about with snooker then... them fighting words.

also.. without quoting the next bits.. I guess Dart players are out so darts isn't a sport.. In the 80s there had to be new rules brought in cause most dart players were heavy drinkers, really over weight, male etc. It was before the big Darts split but there are still some people which think that it was one of the many things which lead to the split (one major part was sponsor ship as you couldn't make a living as a darts player (there for, be professional.. and there for, making it as sport as many people claim).

Also.. depends on where you play for your view of the people.. While I don't know them personally enough to play with them, I know a number of female players and some war games which are very much geared towards the female market. so.. huh.. then again, darts, snooker even poker is mostly male still. been some great female players (well. not sure about Poker.. how the hell is that a spectator sport.. Oh wait? there is a term 'Spectator sport'? that means not all sports are FOR spectators if there is a special name.. So again, that goes against one point ^_^


See this is very interesting to me cause I want people with different ideas giving reasons and then seeing how well it stands up. I have found a couple of bits which say some games are classed as sports because they match all the requirements.. but they don't list the requirements.. oh.. and 'Geocaching' is officially a sport.. try to make much sense of THAT one.
 
From my perspective, Wargaming can be considered a sport, as for example, Video Games ironically are counted as Sports, hence their term of E-Sports. It's just that unlike actual sports, such as Football, Soccer, Baseball, Basketball, etc. that are all physically demanding and more based on natural ability with physical size, speed, strength, agility and stamina, wargaming and video games are more tied to the mental side of things.

Chess as you provided is a great example (The earliest wargame in my point of view, if I recall correctly) of a mental sport, as it's utilizing a natural ability a human has. And that's the key thing that makes a sport a sport, it's about the natural ability of a human being. While later wargames like Kriegspiel, Warhammer, D&D to a point, and other such systems utilize randomness with dice, they're supposed to represent something that is a natural thing to humans as any sport does, warfare and their ability to work with what they have. Wargames are as their name implies, war games. You win by winning a battle, and that usually includes both randomness and mental capabilities. Gaius Julius Caesar didn't become what he is to us now by being mentally weak, or without that amount of fortune he got initially. He became such because of his intellect and the fact that random chances resulted in him following the path that he did. Along with the fact that a lot of his battles that he won at were very randomized by the fact that there were scenarios that he should of lost at, but didn't, such as the final battle with the Gauls during the Gallic War.

Now sports are quite complicated over all, but one thing I saw here was the mention that there isn't randomness in physical sports compared to more mental ones, which I disagree and do not believe it to be the case. You can have all the fundamental rules placed, you can have all the rules not changing on a dime, and you can have the refs not be brided because they're super zealous to the rules. But what you can't control is what your opponent may be thinking at any given time. Even Chess, the most basic and robotized game that you can make to me at least, has randomness in how your opponent will respond to a move or action you take while playing the game. While rules are fundamental, and can be easily made to never change, the opponent, AKA the human opposing you, will always have the air of randomness as they will never be truly consistent unless it is explicitly someone you've been facing for years now.

As to the complicatedness of all sports, it's because they require rules and study of said rules to know what you can or can not do. For example, while I know the rules of Warhammer like the back of my hand at this point, as well as Battletech, games such as Football, Soccer and Basketball are complete amigas to me because I lack the knowledge and study into such games to understand them properly. However, I do know the basics of 'take ball to location to gain a victory point' but that's the most I know because all kinds of games have that feature of a rule to exist, Team Fortress 2, Counter Strike, MOBAs like League of Legends, or even wargames like Warhammer with the Capture the Relic or CTF battle scenarios it had during 6th to 7th. But any further, then I loose the details as it goes over my head unless I dedicate time and energy to study the physical sports. But as I mentioned, there are systems within all sports that makes them even more complicated, such as Football's use of Quarterbacks and Wide Receivers and where they can be placed (If I recall correctly).

Regardless, as to why I consider wargames and in turn, video games, as sports is because of the key aspect I view sports as, the show of natural ability or skill at a particular thing. For example, in Team Fortress 2, you need to have a certain level of team working capability as well as independent skill with particular classes to be really good at the game. An example within TF2 is the Spy, which is shit in the hands of a newb, but completely devastating and dangerous to deal with in the hands of a more skilled player at that class. Or the Soldier with his Rocket Jumping. Then there's Warhammer 40K and Battletech, the examples I'll give that are tied to these two is relation to codices for Warhammer during 3rd Ed, and Battletech's different Mech Weight Classes.

Starting with Warhammer 40K, you have the Dark Eldar in the 3rd Ed Codex variant, which was VERY strong if used right, but that's the problem, used right. Players that aren't skilled at both the base rules of Warhammer 40K 3rd, as well as near experts with their own codex in the form of the Dark Eldar codex, they will not be capable of taking advantage of the natural strengths of the Codex against their opponents, instead making the mistakes that say a Space Marine Player utilizing the Dark Eldar Codex would make. Meanwhile someone who dedicates to the Dark Eldar Codex hard core would know how to spin circles around any army in any given situation, because he dedicated mental skill to that army. Same goes to if he were an Ork Player, or a Chaos Player, all these require some intellectual pursuit to study and understand how you can make the battlefield your's by knowing your army like the back of your hand. Better yet when you know your opponent's army well too. As Warhammer takes a lot of influence from Real Warfare, and thus will utilize your brainpower to think on that logic.

This same logic will apply to Battletech with it's mech weight classifications. Light Mechs are weak in the damaging, and light on armor, but extremely good at speed, and a skilled player with any light mech, even the Urbie, will run circles around a player playing with the heaviest mechs imaginable. But that requires skill and understanding how the game works. All these games have mental relations, and thus, require natural ability of intellect to play effectively. That's not to say you can't play these if you aren't studying them like your math homework, but it does have that difference between players for a reason. You can be like me where I'm quite braindead in my strategies, and so I can easily get beaten by someone who is more skilled at these games than myself. But if you aren't like me, and are very much utilizing complex strategies to win at battles, then obviously you'll succeed better than me. But this also may tie to your army's natural capabilities. But again, that then leads to being capable of offsetting your army's weaknesses with what you can and what you're given with said army.

All this is to say, yes, Wargames are sports, just as Video Games are counted as such. For they utilize mental capabilities that are natural to humans. Luck may be involved, but wargames are what their name implies, War Games. They have to utilize randomness to represent the randomness of war, and thus, will always be random. But even then, physical ability sports are no different on that field due to the natural aspect of randomness with playing against other human beings, you can never truly predict their actions, even if they are following the same rules as you, as they can easily just as much plan differently as they can follow set directions that can be taken. So long as they obey the rules of the game, they will do with the game as they please, and will likely always make a move to try and trick you into one mindset over another. It just depends on the person in question, and how you yourself register their actions.
 
My only contribution is that I remember from studying psychology at university that a "game" is an example of a very hard to define concept we all can recognize instances of but cannot really define its parameters. That doesn't help this conversation except to say we're not stupid for not nailing it down.
 
For me there's too much reliance on randomness for it to be a sport. Whilst you can stack the odds in your favour, and there's some luck element in any sport, there's just too much reliance on luck for it to be a sport. It's more like gambling. I wouldn't call poker a sport, and it's very similar. You're playing the odds as much as anything
 
Sport requires effort and exercise, dedication and training. Warhammer requires money, and due to rules creep and regular changes I'd barely class modern Warhammer as a game let alone a sport.

We are nerdy grown ups playing with toy soldiers refusing to let go of our childhood, not athletes. 😆
 
The Serene Badger said:
For me there's too much reliance on randomness for it to be a sport.
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As stated before.. Depends.
1) Poker is a sport and has WAY more randomness then many war games/ Horse Racing is a sport and relies on even more randomness and luck (there is no real 'all round' great horse. Some are better at harder grounds then others, and the track can change depending on the local weather, some are better in warmer weathers then colder, and alot of random factors which are way above me.
2) I would say there are plenty of war games which have very little luck. If you are just playing huge amounts of dice rolling against each other to decide (I've not played but I think 3ed and maybe others of Blood bowl was meant to have something where one dice roll at the start can decide the whole match, or there there is the infamous version of.. Traveller wasn't it? where you can randomly die when generating your own character.

while I can see why you wouldn't call Poker a sport, it IS an official recognise sport. As that is a statement of fact, saying "it may be a sport, But I won't class it as one" is kinda.. iffy.. Can't say I completely disagree. I don't agree that them plastic things with little plastic fibres which come with children's 'paint sets' is a paint brush, but officially is it..

Slave to Darkness said:
Warhammer requires money
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No offence of course, but check every thing I've said.. I've not been walking about Warhammer Fantasy Battle, or Warhammer 40K or Warhammer Quest, or anything else you could call Warhammer. I've been talking about old fashion, still running War Gaming, of which Warhammer is a well known war game.

Also.. sports require a HELL of a lot of money. If you are lucky, you have enough skill that a fair amount of your costs can be paid for you, but other wise, you are shut out of sports at the level which you are talking about with alot of money. If you want to take it to the basic level of 2 people kicking an old can around, then war gaming can be and often WAS taken to the same level. Kinda a shame.. what's his name stopped doing his 'blue peter gaming' blog where he did things like making a sci-if tank from old cardboard and cork, and figures from bits of wood, but there are other places around.


Though if you really want war gaming to take money, I have seen people play with coins for figures. difference values representing different things.. it's easily playing chess like that, depending on your rule set, but still.
 
Ohh, you don't want to go for the Olympics.. that costs Thousands for a person to be able to be entered.. plus it's pointless these days.. the last true Olympic athlete was Eddie Edwards.. he was crap, and he knew it, but the last true Amateur to be able to take part in the amateur games, which was the Olympics. So they changed the rules and pretty much everyone who enters has to be a professional and make SOO much money from taking part due to sponsorship. I used to know someone (loosely) and for them to take part in the disabled Olympics (this was before they really decided they can cash in on them with showing them on TV and stuff) they had to get a rich sponsor and THEN fund raise the other half of the money being a couple of grand, so they were able to take part...

such a joke event.. Though I do know that the Atari 800XL was the official computer of the 1984 Summer Olympics... back before they had 'official' anything which wanted to pay the money to get the ranking.. not that Atari didn't pay good money for that, but there was a BIT of a limit then..

also.. War gaming, not Wargames.. Wargames is my favourite movie ^_^ A movie soo good, I even have it on Laser disc in a nice frame on my wall. Only Laser disc I have cause.. I wanted a Laser disc and that is a fantastic film (ignore any video games or 'sequels' they have claimed to have done.. they Don't exist.
 
An interesting thread. I shall offer up my first thought of loose definition: "A sport is a game played competitively". So we can enjoy a game of Tennis if you like, but we might well call it a sport when played in a tournament. A kick around at the park with a ball is a game of football, the premier league is a joke sporting event ;)

I'm not sure it's a rigorous definition and not one you might look too deeply at. Certainly wargaming can be as much a spectator sport as modern "e-sport" games and I've just come to accept that for whatever reason people enjoy watching other people play computer games, but then why would that really be odd ? - people pack out a stadium to watch football or baseball or whatever. So the taking part is evidently not a requirement to enjoy the spectacle. I enjoyed watching games at BOYL for instance.

Do I think of Wargaming as a sport - not really personally because my inherent biases assume sport entails more physicality, but I think it could easily be played as a sport in so much as many less physical "sports" seemed to be classed as sports, be that snooker, darts, shooting, eSports, etc. I can't see any reason why it couldn't count as a sport when offered up against such things, but I think probably only when played in a more serious competitive nature, I'm not sure an evening with beers and crisps and orcs quite counts!
 
^_^ but again, the term 'Competitive sport' is for sports which are competitive. and there are sports which aren't. so that kinda falls down ^_^ but then what is competitive? that word is very rough ranging from any thing which is one (or more) vs one (or more).. so alot of war games, board games, debates, etc. to having be something which has a strong one (or more) vs one (or more).. really, the strong one excludes any sport where people are still gentlemen and congratulate the other team (or person) for winning.. like most snooker, darts, etc. so by that meaning, they aren't sports..

though if anyone remembers the early 90s.. and the split in darts which still hasn't fully been dealt with, there was NOTHING friendly about THAT.. both sides were very much out of blood after a while.
 
Beers, crisps and orcs. Sounds like a footie game to me. I've seen a fair few orcs coming out of anfield over the years.

Might have been drunk Scouse berds now I think about it.
 
You cannot have an element of chance in a sport, unless it is modified by skill.

Poker is not a sport, Chess is. Yahtzee is not a sport, darts is. No dice, no random equipment/cards..
 
Poker is officially a sport. Though I should fully explain that.

there are some legal issues when it comes to if something is a Sport or not, some to do with taxes and stuff.. this is why fake Wrestling (like WWE) had to admit to not being a sport (Thus changed to 'sports based entertainment) else regulation at that level would pretty much kill alot of the rubbish they do.

Anyway, for Poker, it does depend on the country but some do 100% class it as a sport and there for deal with legal and tax implications which come from that. Examples:
2012: Brazillian Ministry of Sport recognized it as a Mind Sport and had a governing body to regulate it (the CBTH).
Germany border lines is with it being a game of skill rather then chance and is just a tiny step away from being a sport. IF it was just a game and not a sport, under the laws, the money you won would be tax free (like in the UK, if you won money on a competition which is based on chance, then it's tax free, but if it's a sport or something that requires great amount of skill, then it's taxed. German Courts kept ruling that Poker is a game of skill and thus taxable
USA says Game but has a lower tax bracket for it cause they say it's mostly skill
China says Sport and is under sporting bodies. If it was a game, it would be gambling which is illegal under Chinese law, but it's seen as a 'weak' sport. But tournaments are 100% sport.
UK is Game and thus untaxable winnings unlike sport which is taxable.
I won't go into Japan cause anyone that knows about Japanese law knows the ... problems with Gambling.. it's very messy and technically all forms are illegal despite it happening alot but only via 'cheats' (you never bet or win money, cause they would be illegal).
IMSA the international Mind Sports Association which deal with sports globally 100% officially added Poker as a Mind Sport last year,, the WPF (World Poker Federation) took alot of work and really complex history if you check up on it, for getting it to be recognised as a sport.

So. While some country border line alot of it, it IS a officially recognised sport, and the legal issues which go with it. If you want something which is 100% seen as a sport without debate? can't think of any thing. seriously, there are groups and places where something like Rugger or Cricket aren't seen as a sport so.. yep..

So personal view on poker doesn't really come into much with a simple statement. In theory, being English, UK law doesn't recognise it as a sport. But we recognise the IMSA and that DOES recognise it as a sport so.. make of that what you will.

Any again, I would debate saying war games involve chance any more then any sport. If you think Chess and snooker doesn't involve as much chance, Then I might want to challenge you to a game sometime. I'm not great but luck is one of my skills at such games.
 
ManicMan said:
Poker is officially a sport. Though I should fully explain that.

there are some legal issues when it comes to if something is a Sport or not, some to do with taxes and stuff.. this is why fake Wrestling (like WWE) had to admit to not being a sport (Thus changed to 'sports based entertainment) else regulation at that level would pretty much kill alot of the rubbish they do.

Anyway, for Poker, it does depend on the country but some do 100% class it as a sport and there for deal with legal and tax implications which come from that. Examples:
2012: Brazillian Ministry of Sport recognized it as a Mind Sport and had a governing body to regulate it (the CBTH).
Germany border lines is with it being a game of skill rather then chance and is just a tiny step away from being a sport. IF it was just a game and not a sport, under the laws, the money you won would be tax free (like in the UK, if you won money on a competition which is based on chance, then it's tax free, but if it's a sport or something that requires great amount of skill, then it's taxed. German Courts kept ruling that Poker is a game of skill and thus taxable
USA says Game but has a lower tax bracket for it cause they say it's mostly skill
China says Sport and is under sporting bodies. If it was a game, it would be gambling which is illegal under Chinese law, but it's seen as a 'weak' sport. But tournaments are 100% sport.
UK is Game and thus untaxable winnings unlike sport which is taxable.
I won't go into Japan cause anyone that knows about Japanese law knows the ... problems with Gambling.. it's very messy and technically all forms are illegal despite it happening alot but only via 'cheats' (you never bet or win money, cause they would be illegal).
IMSA the international Mind Sports Association which deal with sports globally 100% officially added Poker as a Mind Sport last year,, the WPF (World Poker Federation) took alot of work and really complex history if you check up on it, for getting it to be recognised as a sport.

So. While some country border line alot of it, it IS a officially recognised sport, and the legal issues which go with it. If you want something which is 100% seen as a sport without debate? can't think of any thing. seriously, there are groups and places where something like Rugger or Cricket aren't seen as a sport so.. yep..

So personal view on poker doesn't really come into much with a simple statement. In theory, being English, UK law doesn't recognise it as a sport. But we recognise the IMSA and that DOES recognise it as a sport so.. make of that what you will.

Any again, I would debate saying war games involve chance any more then any sport. If you think Chess and snooker doesn't involve as much chance, Then I might want to challenge you to a game sometime. I'm not great but luck is one of my skills at such games.
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So it is NOT officially a sport, EXCEPT in China and in Brazil, where it is specifically a 'mind sport' and under the IMSA where it is a 'mind sport' but not a 'sport'. I have to clarify as we're being extremely picky!

So same rules apply - chance equals gambling, skill equals sport, but governments hate missing out on tax / banning popular pastimes so local rules apply to winnings..

I bet there are no dice based sports.
 
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