What do you consider oldhammer?

To me Oldhammer is the earliest of models/collections and armies, and therefore fantasy armies, WFB 1 & 2. A fantasy to emerge yourself in, study the fabulous modelling of miniatures for ages and appreciate mature fantasy images and artwork, some prog and rock music lent itself to the feel of it and deeper you went, such as Marillion's Grendel, Assassing etc It was more a representation of another world.

It all changed for me when those magnificent modelling techniques were beginning to be replaced by more fantastic almost cartoonish representations, tied to the introduction of plastic miniatures on sprues and the artwork started to make the product look like toys as they tried to expand the appeal. Killed it for me, so we as a gaming group focussed on WFB 2 and detailed playing Middle Earth, WHR, Cthulhu etc - thoroughly enjoyed Car Wars too!
 
AranaszarSzuur":qn5wgrww said:
Zhu Bajie":qn5wgrww said:
converting Airfix romans with laser-guns etc.
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Do you have links to any examples?
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Unfortunately not. It's just what Joe Dever (and IIRC Rick Priestly) used to get up to, long before photographing toy soldiers became a thing people did. If you're just looking for examples of the style, rather than the models, The Trigan Empire comic strip from 1960s is what Joe was referencing, and theres the Doctor Who strip Iron Legion (1970s) and might be some in Rogue Trooper, in those stories where the Southers go mental and re-eneact cultures of old Earth.
 
Zhu Bajie":2pji0pbw said:
AranaszarSzuur":2pji0pbw said:
Zhu Bajie":2pji0pbw said:
converting Airfix romans with laser-guns etc.
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Do you have links to any examples?
Click to expand...

Unfortunately not. It's just what Joe Dever (and IIRC Rick Priestly) used to get up to, long before photographing toy soldiers became a thing people did. If you're just looking for examples of the style, rather than the models, The Trigan Empire comic strip from 1960s is what Joe was referencing, and theres the Doctor Who strip Iron Legion (1970s) and might be some in Rogue Trooper, in those stories where the Southers go mental and re-eneact cultures of old Earth.
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Lol, I just realised it's something I actually did, except with Italeri medieval stuff.
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When OldHammer was just Hammer, I used everything I could to make worlds, armies and stories. I still do. Every make of figures that fit my worlds, kit-bashing, scratch-building, and detailed story campaigns underpinned by strict rules and mechanics. This makes me feel like I am still doing exactly what I did back in the 80s. Which to my mind means what I am doing is OldHammering. The figures in my campaign range are from the late 70's to last week, as is the scenery, all side by side. Essex Miniatures next to Citadel next to Wargames Atlantic. Linka next to Conflix next to Ziterdes.

I think Oldhammer is partly about one's approach, partly the models, and partly about continuing what you were doing 40 years ago today!
 
Padre":2cbtqxcw said:
When OldHammer was just Hammer, I used everything I could to make worlds, armies and stories. I still do. Every make of figures that fit my worlds, kit-bashing, scratch-building, and detailed story campaigns underpinned by strict rules and mechanics. This makes me feel like I am still doing exactly what I did back in the 80s. Which to my mind means what I am doing is OldHammering. The figures in my campaign range are from the late 70's to last week, as is the scenery, all side by side. Essex Miniatures next to Citadel next to Wargames Atlantic. Linka next to Conflix next to Ziterdes.

I think Oldhammer is partly about one's approach, partly the models, and partly about continuing what you were doing 40 years ago today!
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That's the spirit. There's no way 13 year old me could ever have afforded a full metal figures army. I used Hero Quest Orcs and chaos warriors. I made clay molds of the chaos warriors and then made clayos warriors, painted with my dads humbrol paints. Even made some clay dragons, beastmen and norse berserkers. Also tried to replicate Groms chariot. I believe He-Man made for a goofy looking giant at one time.
Most favourable "guest star" was a chocolate biscuit representing a vortex spell which annihilated everything it came in contact with.

To this day I have a clay sarcophagus containing the decapitated body of Emperor Ludwig 13 (because who was Karl Franz?) with a sealed scroll in it, (no idea what it reads).
That was Oldhammer to me, the spirit of the game.

Today it's all powerplay, strict rules, retcons upon retcons etc.
 
for me? while rules sets i'll go up to version 4... I would say this quote from Rick Priestley via Grognardia and Gideon's Awesome Lies blog':
The Reaper rules were actually more of a battle game than the games we were actually playing, mostly because our role-playing elements were pretty much done free-form by the umpire without any rules as such. There was a lot of ‘it’s up to you’ in the game system and that’s something I think both of us felt was key to the game. I think we were rebelling against the ‘rules are rules and must be obeyed as holy writ’ style of game that was more usual at the time (and since!).
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[Reaper, of course, being kinda the first published version of what became Warhammer).

So.. soild rule structure BUT not being too bound down by them and allowing 'local flavour'. Not being tied down to say 'You MUST have the 100% correct miniatures produced by the correct Company' too.
 
To me, 'Oldhammer' would be anything up to and including 5th edition - aka 'Herohammer'.
The last GW releases GW did that I got into were Battlefleet Gothic and Mordheim in the very early 00's, and while I did like some of the changes they made for 6th edition - such as toning down the characters somewhat and forcing players to field at least a minimum number of regular ('core') troops - the new figures didn't really grab me, the army books as well as White Dwarf became 'darker' and less creative, imho.
The only new Citadel minis I've bought since are some Wild Riders of Kuornos and the special edition Sisters of Battle abess based on the John Blanche codex cover.
Don't get me started on the spindly abominations they make for A$$ of Sickmar. I think that nightmarish trend was started by Rackham's Confrontation, especially the Dwarves of Mid-Nor.
I'd happily go back to 4th edition WHFB and Grenadier's Fantasy Warriors, in fact, I tried for years to get people into playing the latter, with little to no success.
 
Wolfie65 said:
To me, 'Oldhammer' would be anything up to and including 5th edition - aka 'Herohammer'.
The last GW releases GW did that I got into were Battlefleet Gothic and Mordheim in the very early 00's, and while I did like some of the changes they made for 6th edition - such as toning down the characters somewhat and forcing players to field at least a minimum number of regular ('core') troops - the new figures didn't really grab me, the army books as well as White Dwarf became 'darker' and less creative, imho.
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I think that if we'd think about some sort of "Retrohammer" umbrella, I think it should also include 'Middlehammer' so Mordheim, BFG, 3rd ed 40k and 6th ed WHFB. I think the point of shift to "newhammer" was 2003 when they released the new super expensive Imperial Armour series where a single book would cost as much as a whole starter set for a specialist game like Mordheim or BFG. as it was when GW became about excluding people. Also, it was pretty much the conclusion of a period shift in painting style, WD layouts changed to more "modern", etc. Index Astartes series stopping being a regular feature, etc.
 
The idea of more of an umbrella is probably fairly accurate. I tend to think of Oldhammer as strictly (and I'm hardly strict) being WFB 3rd / 40k:RT and before. 4th WFB and above being Midhammer (I still think that sounds better than Middlehammer, much more like an old Empire city), but these days as we all get older I doubt there are many in the Oldhammer community that don't enjoy seeing some nice 4th/5th edition models and many now have a bit of nostalgic charm to them especially compared to more recent sculpts. So that somewhat transitionary phase feels in the right spirit to me to be a close family member at the very least if not now part of Oldhammer.
 
EricF said:
The idea of more of an umbrella is probably fairly accurate. I tend to think of Oldhammer as strictly (and I'm hardly strict) being WFB 3rd / 40k:RT and before. 4th WFB and above being Midhammer (I still think that sounds better than Middlehammer, much more like an old Empire city), but these days as we all get older I doubt there are many in the Oldhammer community that don't enjoy seeing some nice 4th/5th edition models and many now have a bit of nostalgic charm to them especially compared to more recent sculpts. So that somewhat transitionary phase feels in the right spirit to me to be a close family member at the very least if not now part of Oldhammer.
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From what I understand, 4th-5th ed falls under Herohammer. From what I understand it's because of how powerful heroes were.
I remember reading release notes for 3rd ed 40k and they mentioned how they wanted to make less skirmish due to Necromunda being a thing and how they wanted heroes and vehicles to dominate the game less - at the same time the game is in between the new and the old which is why Midhammer fits it the best.
I suspect there was a similar shift in philosophy in 6th ed WFB? There was also a lot of post-Herohammer wonkiness remaining in WFB since for long time for example the wonky 5th ed Chaos Warriors were around until new ones were released, I think in 2004?
 
For me there are two threads to oldhammer: 1) it’s a time period from about 84 to 91. By coincidence that’s when I first got into the hobby, and for me it represents a golden period where improvements in technical expertise in sculpting and art were combined with Rpg story telling and amateur inventiveness. Some might say that’s just because it’s when I was discovering it, but for me by 92 I knew something had gone wrong. There was still some great stuff produced but the focus and the core had come adrift. One thread of oldhammer is celebrating that high point . 2) another aspect is recreating the innovation and lack of codification. You invent scenarios, characters and improvise. That doesn’t need lead 87 olley sculpts - you could use 3D prints and Perry plastics. It’s approaching gaming like people did in the 80s. (Ok a lot of people didn’t game like that in the 80s but let’s pretend an idealised subset was the norm)
 
That latter point is Oldhammer to me. The spirit of it is what matters. Obviously, Oldhammer *does* have a certain aesthetic aspect to it (the more gothic, whimsical, yet still somehow low fantasy mashup that those earlier editions retained). That said, it's about people approaching the game with the mindset of seeing a narrative play out on the table - tabletop games have a unique combination of tangible, artistic physical objects, narrative freedom and thrilling gameplay. Many modern tabletop games seem to want to ape videogames, whereas I believe videogames can only dream of offering what tabletop games can offer (I include RPGs here).

Oldhammer, to me, is that time where people sought to get immersed in a fairly believable fantasy setting and play fun, crunchy and narrative games within it. The miniatures, to some extent, come second to that philosophy. I'd happily see a 3rd Edition Warhammer Fantasy army made up of Perry Miniatures plastic medievals; being fleeced for 80s/early 90s sculpts on eBay should not be the requirement for entry.
 
This is oldhammer

oldhammer.png


This is Warhammer

Warahmmer.png



Every single Warhammer edition got plenty of spirit and nice looking miniatures and backing from Citadel/GW and most importantly from fans. Just because it stated that you have to have this and that, doesn't mean that you have to. Numerous times in all those old 80s WDs and books, there were sentences like "Citadel offers wide range...", always. In every single Citadel Journal from 90s "Give Trolls a call to sort you out...", countless conversions and fan based characters ( with part numbers if you like to do the same one ), missions, modifications of rules. Plenty ( if I recall, but I do recall Palanquin, lovely model ) of old miniatures from 80s RoC era that got rules for 4th and 5th WHFB edition, that didn't get official rules in army books. Spirit was always there but aesthetics has changed. Same was with me when I saw 6th edition. Layout was different, painting style was different ( and that painting style started with 5th edition Undead and 5th edition Realm of Chaos ( Vampire Counts 5th edition got similar layout of army book and that layout was very similar to 3rd edition 40k codices, I think )). Not to mention that those plastic kits and more complex miniatures offered countless conversions and easiness of doing it.
That "oldhammer spirit" is nothing more then natural spirit of any hobby that involves creativity or got possibility to be creative in any direction, regardless what type of hobby is in question.
To me good example to this ( beside Warhammer ) is Ma.K.
 
The worst thing is that oldhammer tags instagram are now flooded with 2+ edition 40k stuff. And it just feels different. Like for example MetalTech or Ion Age feels much more oldhammer to me than 2nd ed 40k. Like Space Lords and Ion Age literally look like someone saw what 40k is turning into and decided they want to keep the old visual style alive.
 
Gibby - I think “low fantasy” is a key point. The 80s fantasy stuff included repurposed historical and much had a very low key realistic aesthetic. Still an anachronistic mish mash but not world of Warcraft. The introductory scenario of WFB2 included plenty of fantastical elements but it was gang of misfits save a village, not save the world/universe.
 
Scalene, I agree completely. I have always preferred that style of fantasy anyway, which explains my attraction to the older editions of Warhammer compared to what we have today.
 
This reminds me of the classic blogpost:

The Old School is Pathetic â A Rant

A rant, in which I play the pseud, before growing tired and irritable. Pathetic [pəˈθɛtɪk] adj. - arousing pity, sympathy or compass...
drbargle.blogspot.com drbargle.blogspot.com

Also another classic:
theporkster.blogspot.com

The Unbearable Lightness of Grimdark?

This particular thread is one of the more useful discussions on the aesthetic trends in 40K that I've seen in a while, going beyond lev...
theporkster.blogspot.com theporkster.blogspot.com
 
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