What do you consider oldhammer?

[Quantum]

I've been wondering for a good bit what people here consider to be oldhammer. What "qualifies"? I think that it is generally the earliest stuff from the 80s up until around the late 90s to maybe 2000? In 40k terms up to 3rd edition. After that you get into what is closer to modern 40k and fantasy ("modern fantasy"), which to me, is not old enough to be called oldhammer but still quite old at this point. 2004-2014, so 4th to 6th edition 40k maybe? Not sure if middlehammer or midhammer is an actual term or not, but it could be described as that; the middle of the timeline of warhammer rule sets. Then there is the recent history to modern 40k in 7th, 8th and 9th edition.

I was spurred to ask this question when a player at my local store commented on my space marine dreadnought, the regular plastic boxnaut, and said "Oh wow! A classic dreadnought. I've never seen one in person before". It is a strange and somewhat disheartening feeling to me that some people have no real concept of warhammer 40k before the release of 8th and primaris and the whole rigamarole that the game is these days. Not to bash people who get into 40k and don't know, its just strange to me thinking about how long I've been in the hobby. It made me stop and think about how old some of the sculpts and models are in my collection. The sculpt for the aforementioned dreadnought is from 1992 or 93. Its shift from metal to plastic didn't really change anything.

tl;dr what do you consider the time frame for oldhammer?

 

[Eric]

I tend to think of oldhammer as strictly being up to 3rd edition WFB and 40K Rogue Trader, but given most of my armies were for the most part 4th WFB I'd probably stretch my own definition! That said I think there is a certain spirit to oldhammer models/games and that can be present in some of the later GW models/games and indeed newer sculpts both from GW and other companies (probably even more so). I also suspect the timeframe window of oldhammer grows a bit as time passes, so maybe the mid-late 90s are old enough now to be a bit oldhammer-ish?

 

[Loose Loser]

To me, Oldhammer is everything up until LOTR. Everything changed after first LOTR White Dwarf cover. Design of sculpts changed ( and started to change ), layout of WD, army books and codices. But, that happen in 90s also with 4th edition Warhammer and 2nd edition 40,000. Change in sculpts ( started to change ) and book layout. That's what I saw. So I actually think ( forget first sentence that I think even got some back ) that Oldhammer is 80s, Hero Hammer ( like that nickname ) is 90s.

 

[symphonicpoet]

I think we go around this question every year or two. "Oldhammer" is to me a term rather like "classic rock" was in the 80s. It's not terribly well defined, and sometimes new things actually count, but you know it when you see it. It's much more a particular retro style than miniatures of a specific era. I'd personally say there's a clear 80s nostalgia to it. The shortest answer I think I could give is that "Oldhammer" is miniatures in the style that Citadel popularized in the 80s and possibly very early 90s. The style began to change during the "red era" just before 2nd edition 40K hit the stands. Like most art things are darned fuzzy around the edges, and elements of new style vocabularies begin to peak out in some fairly early miniatures, like flat faced terminators, say, and older elements might cling to the dark corners of newer works. In the end the styles evolved organically, and so it's really absurdly difficult to draw clear lines and whatever you might come up with can, at times, feel arbitrary. But many of us can probably agree on at least some broad outlines, so we keep trying.

But of course, "Oldhammer" isn't just a sculpting style. It's also a style of play that enjoyed a brief popularity then. (Particularly in the woobly memories of people long past their teenage years.) And again, it needn't be just old rules, but rather rules of any age that attempt to summon up that casual, fun packed, pop fantasy fueled narrative style we think we remember from basement floors and (occasionally) game store tables of the 80s. (I think the cellulose thinners and mineral spirits baked a few brain cells. Or maybe the lead left some strange Rorschach blots for us to interpret decades later. Memories like photographs shot through a lens smeared liberally with baby oil.)

I doubt anyone ever comes up with a completely clear definition. Maybe I hope no one ever does. But however you define it yourself I hope that the spirit of fun finds its way in.

 

[Juxt]

It's a personal thing, for me I got into Warhammer in 1992, oldhammer is the stuff from before then that people would show me in their old white dwarfs and rulebooks etc.. This coincides conveniently with a shift in GW's style around the release of 4th ed Warhammer and 2nd ed 40k, both were a significant change to what came before both in terms of painting, sculpting and game style. I wasn't into the old stuff that lined the shelves at GW, I only wanted the bright new things I saw in the new white dwarf.
Middlehammer is the period I was active for the first time in the hobby, I played until 1998ish and then stopped for a decade or so. So for me, the classifications are:

Oldhammer- pre 1992, before my time.
Middlehammer- 1992 to 1998, my time.
Warhammer/Newhammer- anything after 1998

 

[dieselmonkey]

It's a bit of a nebulous question, as it can rightly mean pretty much anything to anyone. Originally it was focused around the 'classic era' of 2nd/3rd Ed WFB and RT 40k, because, at the time, that was the rulesets that the people who were writing the main blogs were nostalgic over from when they were younger and first got into GW.

As it got popularised a bit, the demographic widened/changed, and so younger people started to get nostalgic over 'their' first version of WFB and 40k, pushing the envelope forwards in time somewhat.

As much as I'd like to tie it down to it's original niche definition, as that's what I started writing about some 20 years ago(!) when I started playing again after a long break, really Oldhammer is whatever *you* want it to be, within reason.

Also, just regarding the 'Middlehammer' term, whilst it's taken on a life of its own these days, it was originally coined as a joke term because of the narrow focus of the Oldhammer FB group, and the hatred and bitchiness from it regarding anything produced after about 1990, so the people who were more into that era split off and formed their own group.

 

[Loose Loser]

I mean, after 1990? That's small frame window for Oldhammer guys. Could it also be slotta and preslotta? I think that could be good "drawing the line" but that would make window even smaller. I mean I would understand that it's about 5th edition Warhammer. Orcs got bolt thrower from 3rd edition era all the way to the end of 5th. I got blister of Orc Bolt thrower that's in "newer" blister, red blister with thin gold lines so to say. Many 3rd edition miniatures that are used also appears in 4th, specially those that didn't got redesign, like sorceress on Unicorn ( I got that also, beautiful miniature ). Must admit that it's little bit ridicules from the guys.

EDIT : Good thing is that there is many new miniatures that are non slotta today

Sometimes English spins my head haha So forget about older miniatures used in later editions. But it's important when term Oldhammer is coined so according to Dieselmonkey, Oldhammer is up to end of 3rd edition of WHFB and 40,000 to end of RT. Taking into account that 5th edition just ended so it wasn't considered old, even thou people tend to refer that something old moment redesign comes out.

 

[jon_1066]

In my opinion:

Oldhammer is anything before the buy out at Games Workshop ie up to 3rd Edition and Rogue Trader. Crusty old sods like me basically. Coincidently GW and I split around this time as I was no longer a kid and their product headed towards the kids much more overtly.

Middlehammer I would describe as the plastic tat years. ie when the injection moulding techniques couldn't match the metal but were churned out for the kids. This is the growth of army books, ever revising codex, power creep, new and shiny in order to boost sales. Characterised by the accountants taking over the design studio. A good cut off for this would be scrapping of Warhammer Fantasy Battle and the departure of Tom Kirby.

Newhammer is from when plastic quality has risen sufficiently to challenge the old lead in technology (if not is aesthetics). So basically Age of Sigmar onwards.

 

[Zhu Bajie]

Oldhammer is pre 1991 warhammer. I don't think whatever someones personal nostalgia and timeframe is really all that relevant, the games were materially different, the settings looser, less central. Oh wait. I already wrote this, 10 years ago! Oldhammer

I'd also use Oldhammer to talk about games-culture artefacts (games, models, nonsense) outside of GWs self-referential marketing that specifically reference the design of that time frame, and also to some extent the games-culture that informed the design of WFB, so stuff like Laserburn / Reaper / Archworld / Charles Grants Battle, converting Airfix romans with laser-guns etc.

 

[twisted moon]

what do you consider the time frame for oldhammer?

i don't. it's not about a particular time, let alone rule set, it's a frame of mind and the sort of games you play with whatever you personally find aids the immersion / suspension of disbelief.

 

[Fimm McCool]

To me it's more about style- It's about rule of cool and narrative games rather than power gamer tournaments. It's about hand sculpted miniatures (ideally in metal) with exaggerated features. It's about a sense of humour, liberal dose of satire and willingness to 'go with' something because it feels like what should happen even if it defies the 'rules' (more like guidelines) and lands your own forces in trouble.

 

[Golgfag1]

Oldhammer - for me is playing games in good company, with reasonable painted old and new figures, with a rye smile , giving every opportunity for your opponent to beat you , to make a better story and being prepared to throw the game if, their not prepared to do the same .

Paul / Golgfag1

 

[symphonicpoet]

^Just don't throw the miniatures! (I might have actually thrown a certain kitbashed titan in frustration once when I was . . . seventeen? But Ed is my dude and I put him back together after. Made him better, even. So there is that.)

 

[PlainsWorld90]

From a personal perspective I would say 1st edition right up to the very end of 4th ed FB AND the very end of 2nd ed 40k. I have some legit valid reasons to including the two later points and not from a nostalgic perspective. I refuse to include 2nd edition Space Hulk or 3rd edition Blood Bowl into this for the reasons that these were very much so part of the "middlehammer" era in all ways. While Warhammer Quest 1st ed will be beloved by me I can never call it "oldhammer" like I could with 2nd ed BB 1st ed SH or Advanced Heroquest which most certainly ARE Oldhammer from a PURIST perspective.

I will tackle why to these later dates: I'm including Marauder line specifically here as part of FB side. The reason is while Marauder had a number of "complete regiments", there is a few holes that had to be filled that were indeed filled in 1992 +. Mainly for example command aspects of regiments and a few releases that were already made just into the release of 4th and shortly after. Prior to this date we had sculpting all over the place, in other cases we had "Streamlined unified looks" even in 3rd edition.

We should consider that specific sculptors had been given more or less one or more of the races to focus on in 3rd. This is very clear with JG chaos stuff and Marauder as well. Where as the Perry Twins had been doing so much of it that it stands out ( in 3rd and older era ) significantly vs the others. One example here would be the very early 4th edition Perry Empire range, which is quite similar to the 3rd ed Maruader Empire range. They compliment each other quite well in this regard. Prior to this many "Empire" ranges were actually REALLY OLD Citadel medieval historic which did not fit the "L style empire" that was being visually pushed in 3rd ed Warhammer Armies and right into the 4th ed Empire which has been the style mostly till the End Times. They may not all have looked like Marauder Empire AFTER no ( and neither have the Dwarves since then ) but they consistently have that distinct "Old World Empire" look to them.

Let's not forget we had warhammer fantasy regiments in plastic during 3rd ed, so the 4th ed monopose cheap plastic boxes are nothing new either. The idea back then was buy bulks of the plastic and one command in metal. They still sometimes sold metal versions as well for those who wanted them like with the gut plug empire halberdiers vs the standing parade style plastic ones. The same goes for many others during 4th ed, the main difference here really was they all had a coherent look with the plastics and metals in 4th unlike prior to this era.

Now lastly I would even allow a very tiny window of specific "Marauder" sculpted FB minis into Oldhammer that came out in 5th, the reason is they still 100% fit with the 1988 look of Marauder ( because they were sculpted by the same people who never changed that look till about 6th ed + ), Ie it's totally acceptable to me to allow Azazel into a 3rd ed chaos MARAUDER army as a slaanesh daemon prince as it would be to use the late 90s Marauder Greater Daemons into them.

We did get a few Marauder Greater Daemons the problem is they were rarer than the citadel ones at the time and still kinda are. The Perry's did the original ones and they don't really work with Marauder chaos too well. For this reason I can only say it's 100% valid to allow 4th ed Marauder Daemons into 3rd ed Chaos armies unless you are using JG or Perry models as the majority of an army...not all of us do I personally have a full Marauder "Slaanesh" army right now that is mostly 3rd ed with some 4th and 5th to fill in gaps but still Marauder sculpted. The only exception being I had to use a Mark Copplestone Slaanesh warrior as my champion because it fit the Marauder look more than Jes did.

40k: This is where things get truly grey in parts and black n white in others. I personally bought all the THEN new space marine metal squads that came out at the end of Rogue Trader ( many of the sculpts were from the Strike Force set with the shaved off arms vs the original ball socket arms ). This is important to point out because it really was still RT and you can also see this on the original boxes with the RT logo vs the 2nd ed logo ones. We can for example include Deathwing Terminators and Space Wolves into RT because they came out during RT, the problem is once Angel's of Death Codex came out you had some real meat given to the backgrounds of all the Chapters. So I would be hesitant at times to include 2nd ed into "Oldhammer" but there is aspects of it I cannot deny/refuse either.

This is more of a problem with 40k than it is with FB which was flushed out decently into 3rd ed more and with WFRP, sure we can claim 4th ed became the streamlined edition just as much as 2nd ed did, yet we cannot ignore or deny that 3rd and RT had some of this already established if not being expanded then and into 2nd ed. Like with my RT scouts I love them and I also love the later 90s style, but for Oldhammer I use the RT scouts and try to force myself to use EARLY 2nd ed 40k models for it as well. If you want a unified look to an Oldhammer army however there is times you have to compromise a little bit and I think that is acceptable too as long as it is not too extreme a compromise and justified with logic and time release frames.

The short answer to all of this is: From a PURIST perspective only up to 3rd FB and RT. From a mostly purist and logical perspective up to 4th FB and 2nd ed 40k. 40k really only became "middlehammer" towards it's end in my view.

 

[Citizen Sade]

I’m with Twisted Moon, Fimm & Golgfag on this. For me, it’s nothing to do with figures or rules, it’s all about the approach to the game and the hobby.

 

[PlainsWorld90]

I’m with Twisted Moon, Fimm & Golgfag on this. For me, it’s nothing to do with figures or rules, it’s all about the approach to the game and the hobby.

From that perspective then it would probably be RT and 3rd, since these were the last editions that had that full sandbox crazy 80s wackyness that used to be. Perhaps a few relics of that made it into 2nd ed 40k early on. Overall the true "creative/total imagination anything goes" era of GW would def be when Brian was running/owned the company. I do however think the miniature side should be factored in since this plays a major role in the majority of GW's actual games too.

 

[Citizen Sade]

Warhammer 2nd and RT were the games I started out with. Things seemed to change when GW rules got more constrained and army list based.

Don’t get me wrong, I’m a huge fan of many of the old miniatures as my lead pile will attest. I’m not so keen on the old rules though. These days, I’m more likely to use Mordheim or Necromunda as the basis for Oldhammer style skirmish games using whatever figure takes my fancy. Old lead, middle-aged pewter, new white metal and the odd resin or plastic figure from various manufacturers all have their place in my collection.

 

[PlainsWorld90]

The other thing I just remembered. 2nd ed did come with that "makeshift" army list flyer/booklet. Which mostly was RT based...yet they also released the first "army books" during this, which drastically changed things in many areas. If I recall The Empire was the first 4th ed Army book as well, prior to this we had Warhammer Armies which one could argue was the first Army Book ever but it was kinda needed and not really flushed out how the later ones were. I guess we could include both Realm of Chaos volumes as well since they had dedicated mono god lists in them plus the warband rules, daemonic legions and even WFRP rules.

Which we all can agree on are oldhammer. The more I consider it though looking back to 3rd ed...it seems to actually be the start/in the works towards streamlining armies/factions/background till it finally hit the "norm" as we know it since. Although we can't blame that all on Kirby since Brian was heavily involved with ROC and other thing's, if I recall one of the last things he worked on was Titan Legions ??? Not that I have issues with what Brian did but there is a lot of stuff that becomes clearer if we look back to the final days of "oldhammer" vs middlehammer +.

 

[Karak Norn Clansman]

There are many good points here from different viewpoints. Not least on the approach to the game, like Golgfag and others describe. 1991 is a good crossroads if time frame for official releases shall be picked. If you don't mind I would like to chip in some of my personal observations as an amateur sculptor, artist and writer:

The looser settings and freewheeling creativity that dares to be bonkers and tongue in cheek with lots of jokes, is one aspect of Oldhammer I particularly enjoy, and try to live up to in my own creative works of all kinds. The quality and style of 1980s artworks and some writings are timelessly intriguing, and well worth emulating, even if I rarely exclusively draw upon 1980s Warhammer styles (I usually use references from all eras of the hobby, and heaps of historical real world reference images).

Twisted Moon has a good point: Oldhammer is ultimately a frame of mind, something that can be lived and acted out (not least in good company). As to drawings, I've lost count of how many people on Reddit has seen my doodles and thought they were official older Games Workshop artworks, despite surrounding links, title, background text and year hidden in the drawing.

To someone like me, looking in from the outside, Oldhammer is not about nostalgia so much as it is about inspiration, and there is a great lot of top-notch inspiration to drink from here. It's a healthy, laidback and fruitful approach to creativity itself. I can assure you that the quality bits from the 1980s really are that good. It's not just rose-tinted glasses and the bias of old memories.

Cheers

 

[AranaszarSzuur]

My classification of Wh40k:

Oldhammer: Rogue Trader up to and excluding Wh40k: Compilation.

Herohammer: Late Rogue Trader and 2nd ed.

Middlehammer: 3rd ed up to and excluding Imperial Armour Volume One - Imperial Guard and Imperial Navy.
A major revitalization of 40k and revival of Wh40k illustration. Ends with solidifying of current 'Eavy Metal style and beginning of exclusive fluff like in the Imperial Armour series.

Newhammer: 3.5 ed and later.