Space Crusade returns!

[Aiteal]

Point being everything is context.

Aside from a ill advised attempt to generate sales, what's the context for porn star tits on power-armoured blow up sex-dolls?
We're all Oldhammer guys here, those who appreciate narrative above all else, so what's the deal? Are they fighting over the last deposit of silicon and thongs in the galaxy?

 

[bulldoglopez]

They're fighting to get to the seed of the last surviving male in the galaxy.... Who also happens to be Den, of Earth.

 

[dieselmonkey]

The thing that bothers me the most about these is not the lazy, mediocre sculpting, the terrible armour concept or the tedious genderbollocks of their very existence, but it's the fact that Prodos have clearly thought 'Hmm, what will sell the most to our target demographic?' and then thought 'I know, Female Space Marines with their tits out!'

If they had the license to actually reproduce SC, they should have just redone it and kept with the original game concept and models, but updated. As it appears that they've just effectively appropriated the name and now have to create a game to sit behind it, they've just gone for the T'n'A approach for sales. More than anything, it's just the sheer upfront cynicism of their putting together the name of a (formerly!) much loved game with such a shameless attempt to rake in the money.

 

[daddyorchips]

euwwwwww! That's seven fetishes too far for me

i think this is fantastic, far better than all the cheesy sexy demons and space marine chicks with their boobs out.

 

[daddyorchips]

also, i think i agree with everything that Aiteal has said on this discussion, but they put it much better and more sensibly than I could.

 

[Zhu Bajie]

Aiteal - not everyone who doesn't like Space Crusade does so for prudish reasons. People calling Space Crusade sexist are being prudish and misogynistic by denying the variety of human female body image, sexuality and the representation thereof. The problem for most Third Wave Feminism(s) isn't that a sexualised representation exists, but when it's the only choice (or the only representation within a sign system) or the representation includes inequality of self-determination. I'm glad that Produs has reacted to the criticism by producing more variety of femarines.

I do find myself nodding in agreement with Ernys posts there! But I'm not sure the 'male gaze' is being constructed all that strongly in many of these figures.

If we take John Bergers (everyone has read or watched Ways of Seeing yeah?) "men act and women appear. Men look at women. Women watch themselves being looked at." It's a complex model of control and authority that ends up with self-objectivisation and lack of agency by the female observer. That's not what I see going on here. What I see is a female form in active, dynamic poses. Imagine ANY of those poses not as women, but as men. Perfectly normal.

But if you imaginarily gender-swap the Rubens (imagine the women are men, and vice versa):

The resulting image is a bit.. weird. Because the female body is being constructed as spectacle in a specifically male-gazey way, and these kind of representations are still dominant in our culture (in advertising and cinema especially). IMHO, there's a level of equality that's been achieved by the sculptor and missed by the vocal detractors because of the nudity - and possibly something about powered-armour being coded as masculine, aaand a category confusion that it's softcore heavy metal fantasy stuff, not sunday afternoon with the kids stuff, or hard-tech science fiction military wargames simulation stuff.

Also going back to something Stormbringer raised and Dieselmonkey mentioned, I had a look at the numbers of owners on BGG:

HeroQuest: 10432;
Space Crusade: 2884

And just for some perspective Catan: 77912; Like most statistics, it's just indicative of trends rather than hard facts, but I'd say "Space Crusade" isn't all that fondly remembered and that its brand equity is really low. IF Prodos wes expecting to leverage "Space Crusade" for purely commercial reasons, I think that was a mistake, but as the miniatures are clearly sci-fantasy ecclesiastical / angelic vs. alien / demonic imagery, then the name fits the pseudo-religious symbolism really well, but have to admit I'm not really comfortable with the idea of the Crusades being evoked in this way (nor with Hasbro / GWs use in the 90s), being far too tied into the medieval roots of anti-semitism and islamophobia.

 

[Stormbringer]

I'd say "Space Crusade" isn't all that fondly remembered and that its brand equity is really low.

Space Crusade was only released in Europe, not North America, which explains the lack of comparative BGG ownage-figures in comparison with the ubiquitous HeroQuest.

In other European countries it was also highly altered, both in content and name (I believe it was called StarQuest in Germany), essentially meaning it was only available in its pure, original form in the United Kingdom, which narrows down the audience significantly.

Among those who have played it, I get the sense it is very fondly remembered.

I'm not really comfortable with the idea of the Crusades being evoked in this way (nor with Hasbro / GWs use in the 90s), being far too tied into the medieval roots of anti-semitism and islamophobia.

It seems perfectly appropriate to use in a science-fantasy setting rife with medieval-esque pseudo-religious zealotry and fanaticism. But, as seen in both the 40K and original Warhammer universes, I believe it's meant to be seen ironically and ultimately critical of historical human theocratic establishments and traditions, neither endorsing or condoning them.

 

[dieselmonkey]

Also going back to something Stormbringer raised and Dieselmonkey mentioned, I had a look at the numbers of owners on BGG:

HeroQuest: 10432;
Space Crusade: 2884

And just for some perspective Catan: 77912; Like most statistics, it's just indicative of trends rather than hard facts, but I'd say "Space Crusade" isn't all that fondly remembered and that its brand equity is really low.

Interesting figures. Like Stormbringer said, HQ was released far more widely, hence the increased ownership in general. I can only really speak for the UK, but I think both HQ and SC acted as a 'gateway drug' for further gamers, so whilst they may not still own the games (they are rather simplistic, truth be told), it was fondly remembered.

I mean, I was working at GW when these games were around, and we used to frequently get boxes of 'fan letters' sent to us from MB, from kids who wanted to know more. We'd send 'em a catalogue and a bunch of flyers, and hope they'd buy more stuff.

Generally, I just think it's a shame, more than anything.

 

[ramshackle_curtis]

Podros have very shady business practices. They have overspent on thier Predator board game and are not supplying KS backers etc etc. It seems to me what they have done is had a board meeting where they are like "T&A sell, we can make money from scantily clad space women" Then they have searched for names, found "Space Crusade" has lapsed and jumped on board. Probebly to generate this kind of publicity. All publicity is good pubicty. Cynical, badly executed misogynous rubbish.

Zhu, I cant eblive your post, seems a bit off. These are overly sexualised famales. Here is no attempt at gender balance in this game. THe armour is ridiculously impractical and the women are not structured for fighting and have small muscles and big titties. Awful and vulgar.

I hope podros go down the pan.

 

[Zhu Bajie]

I was working at GW when these games were around, and we used to frequently get boxes of 'fan letters' sent to us from MB, from kids who wanted to know more. We'd send 'em a catalogue and a bunch of flyers, and hope they'd buy more stuff.

Must have been part of the commercial arrangement to share marketing 'leads', interesting! Also have to consider that BGG is skewed towards board gamers rather than tabletop wargamers, so yeah.

It seems perfectly appropriate to use in a science-fantasy setting rife with medieval-esque pseudo-religious zealotry and fanaticism. But, as seen in both the 40K and original Warhammer universes, I believe it's meant to be seen ironically and ultimately critical of historical human theocratic establishments and traditions, neither endorsing or condoning them.

GW/MBs SC was marketed at kids, not usually the audience for dry ironic anti-theocratical critique and the game doesn't carry much of the background regards the Evil Empire, so the idea of the 'crusaders' being evil or morally dubious isn't there. Does make me wonder if "Crusade" was dropped in Europe for its historical connotations. I'm not sure things *always* taken as ironic or critical. Consider if LUX MUNDI was intended as ironiic critique, or a genuine (if somewhat coded) expression of sub-creation, and if that isn't ironic, what else might not be? To be honest, it is a deeper and more involved subject than I was intending to get into here, which is about Prodos Space Crusade rather than Warhammers representation of medieval-religious ideology. Maybe it deserves it's own thread...

Zhu, I cant eblive your post, seems a bit off.

I'm not sure it is 'a bit off', whatever you mean by that!

These are overly sexualised famales.

They are in action, combat, poses, not sexualised poses. Just because a female form is naked, doesn't mean it has to be sexual. At least that's what the wife tells me! No but, seriously. not all naked-ness needs to be read as sexual. And even if someone chooses to read the form as sexual, so what? Sex is a normal, healthy part of life.

Here is no attempt at gender balance in this game.

No. They are female forms against other female forms, it's as gender balanced as AoS which has male forms against other male forms. The balance Prodos has achieved is that the vast majority poses are dramatic, dynamic, combat poses - exactly the same as male bodies would be posed doing the same activities. The poses are not pin-up poses, porn-poses, come hither poses, or submissive poses, or 'put on display' poses. The presentation of female forms is equal to what we would expect of male forms.

THe armour is ridiculously impractical and the women are not structured for fighting and have small muscles and big titties.

I don't think they are supposed to be military science-fiction models, they are angels and demons, wiv gunz. They aren't supposed to be 'realistic', nor do all miniatures have to conform to a doctrine of military-realism else be condemned as Entartete Kunst

Demonising some physiques just because they don't fit a certain ideal is a massive issue. With the larger models, I don't like that they have a large, fat, woman as a demon (Mamoona), and a skinny waif as a techno-angel (Artemis), I'd have liked to see a heavy-physique angel, and a skinny waif as a demon too, but that is those two specific models that I think are too value-judgement-driven regards body image. I would applaud Prodos if they varied body shape across the range more.

 

[Asslessman]

Real matter (to me) is not the nudity but the cause of it.

Like any other bloke, I like a good depiction of oversexualised females (think Frazetta, Bisley or whoever) because they're helping pushing the (already deeply exagerated) concept far enough (to 11). This is a form of creativity (wether it is of good taste is strictly perosnnal)
What I find Prodoss is doing (and that's just my opinion) is just the exact same thing yogourt or soap sellers do : they add boobs cuz it sells. it doesn't seem there's any other reason because the rest is just plain regular deriving from sources we all know (most have been mentionned in this thread). In this case it's not a form of creativity but a form of demagogy.

Not saying it's bad per se because even guys at Prodos need to eat at some point. Just saying as a graphic choice, in the case of Bisley/KungFury/whatever I find it cool but in the case of Prodoss, I just find it lazy and nearly lame. (YMMV and all that)

 

[Fimm McCool]

Have you noticed they've released a 'child-friendly' version? Knee-jerk reaction rebranded as a concern about age suitability?

 

[Stormbringer]

Does make me wonder if "Crusade" was dropped in Europe for its historical connotations.

Perhaps. According to Wikipedia, Hero Quest was very popular in Germany and Star Quest was named such to try and ride that wave. However, the game was also heavily censored, so that all the enemies were robots instead of living creatures and that none of the weapons actually destroyed them, only zapped them into different dimensions. Given that heavy toning down of violent content, it's not unreasonable to suggest the name was altered for similar purposes. The Germans certainly love their censoring...

I suppose it could have been called Star Quest or Space Quest in the UK, but it wouldn't really make sense as the Marines are not 'Questing' as much as engaging in a boarding action inside a Space Hulk (which was already a game in its own right by that point). Perhaps 'Space Assault' might have been a good alternative? Doesn't have the same ring, though, and I maintain that 'Space Crusade' is the best name. And should be left untouched for all time.

Consider if LUX MUNDI was intended as ironic critique, or a genuine (if somewhat coded) expression of sub-creation, and if that isn't ironic, what else might not be?

Well, if you're referring to our previous email conversation, that particular example was just one illustration. As it was never, to my knowledge, referenced anywhere else in any Warhammer publication ever, it doesn't say a whole lot about the Warhammer universe in general and I don't think it was intended to be either critique or endorsement of Christianity. I was just reading my own...let's say 'Christian Idealism'...into that image so that I can project my own personal religious sentiments onto the Warhammer World. You might call it "baptising Warhammer". I would be interested to know John Blanche's personal religious convictions though.

...Warhammer's representation of medieval-religious ideology. Maybe it deserves it's own thread...

Well, as you know, I'd certainly enjoy reading your take on this, either in a thread or in a blog-post.


P.S. I was just reading the Wikipedia article about John Blanche and saw this:

Interpretation, for Blanche, is literal, with an absence of intended messages or secret meanings; images are to be enjoyed for what they are, and he aims to draw the viewer to an appreciation of technique, colour, atmosphere, relationship of shapes, dynamics and characters, and the narrative quality of the image. One painting in particular, however, entitled Amazonia Gothique, was something he cites as an effort to produce a deliberate comment:

"...I was utterly sick of seeing brilliant artists producing painting after painting of near-naked fantasy females with chests the size of airships. . . Elements of this style of fantasy art were creeping onto the front of White Dwarf. . . I was receiving letters on a weekly basis, complaining about what people saw as exploitation of the female form."

Seems like he wouldn't approve of the new Space Crusade either.

 

[Count Von Bruno]

I like my Frazetta/Vallejo etc and I also have a fair few Citadel/other female minis in the "Barbarian babe" mold but I don't go much on these at all (besides the Nurgle woman, that's cool!)...at the end of the day though, I don't find any of this any " worse" or stupid, ugly, lame etc as Thunderwolf Cavalry, for example.

 

[AranaszarSzuur]

What kind of people fap at gaming table?

Obviously people aren't going to buy the set for that now are they. But it is marketed at the adolescent male so showing a bit of boob and arse is gonna draw the interest of their desired customer. Sex sells, and when its linked with chunky hardcore super awesome armour it'll sell more.

Lowest common denominator + lack of self-reflection. Ugh.

I'm not quite sure I see your point! Are you saying they missed the trick and with power fields then the ladies could be totally naked

Power field generator + skimpy clothes/naked -> looks less ultra-stupid than revealing power armour.

A quick scribble illustrating the concept (NSFW):
http://i.imgur.com/4s2STI8.png

BTW. it's funny that with all the T&A on market, there isn't a Barsoom novel illustration/comic/movie that would follow the cannon of naked characters.

The models aren't for me, but the carry-on about this game on other forums is pretty amusing!

It certainly seems to have brought out the Puritan brigade with their torches and pitchforks!

I consider myself to be a discerning pervert :monocle: .

That's perhaps the least "fetish" model in my eyes. We have plenty of fat, mostly naked "not Nurgle" worshiping models/art already, this one just happens to be female.

It has clear slaaneshi stylisation - the hair/horn is an allusion to Juan Diaz era deamonettes. Also, overindulgence in eating fits a worshipper of Slaanesh.

Hey, I'm actually *almost* offended by it all, and I still find much of the commentary amusing. I wouldn't touch it, but the people shouting "now what will people think of my hobby?" are the best. Do I assume people mean pornography every time they say they're a big film/movie fan?* How about books?

Basic problem is that with games this shit tends to creep into everything. Like for example one day, MMORPG is this:

Another day it's hard to find one that isn't an orgy of lingerie armour.

Well there you go, nerds mixing up 'bad' with 'I don't like it' again!

Nerds are more known for mixing up 'I like it' with 'good'.

But still referencing the biomechanical aspects, the biomech, cyber, alien-skulls and junk-bot bits don't seem to have come together cohesively in the way Giger may have done (but then very few artists can).

I wonder if Giger fapped to his works. I remember some people lauding nudity in Mamoru Oshii's being disturbing and asexual, while after reading some interview I realised it was author's fetishes all along XD .

Noticed that happening more and more in recent years, even on forums that traditionally have a somewhat T 'n A attitude. Are we seeing a shift in what's considered acceptable in the gaming and miniatures world?

I think it's a shift in mentality due to stuff like people growing up and getting in relationships and most importantly the abundance of free internet porn of all varieties.
Personally, for me, breaking point was Neverwinter Nights and its loading screens. Hmm... I think that point was where stuff started getting really obscene - the loading screens were a deal-breaker for me, but the posters and, ugh...
Then the Japan-influenced MMOs started flowing in with characters in lingerie armour on covers. Somehow they got it much more obscene than the old Heavy Metal stuff.

I think it was the point where I realised it's more of a malicious manipulation to promote game addiction (objectification of male player) than anything supposed to serve making it better. Remember talking with people on one Fallout fan forum on the topic and a lot of people agreeing with me.

I actually knew a dude that worked in development and walked out on a game when they asked him to search for information on fetishes to make the game (some MMO) addictive to players :/ .

Generally, my policy is, if it's not a hentai game, my tolerance for this kind of shit is extremely limited.

Perhaps there's some context for this, The Mary Sue published an article in January with the lovely title In the Grim Darkness of Warhammer 40k‘s Far Future, There Are Only Men, and It’s Terrible The story got 1506 comments, not that it really means a great deal, but it's an indicator.

Ugh. I hate that article. Except for the sister of battle non-updates part. I wonder if there isn't a larger amount of Sisters of Battle than Marines in Wh40k universe...

I'm not really comfortable with the idea of the Crusades being evoked in this way (nor with Hasbro / GWs use in the 90s), being far too tied into the medieval roots of anti-semitism and islamophobia.

I wish someone would bring back Laserburn and Red Redemption .

at the end of the day though, I don't find any of this any " worse" or stupid, ugly, lame etc as Thunderwolf Cavalry, for example.

Thunderwolf Cavalry is a crime against humanity.

 

[zoggin-eck]

Another day it's hard to find one that isn't an orgy of lingerie armour.

Good point, and something that would/has put me off a game.

I wonder if there isn't a larger amount of Sisters of Battle than Marines in Wh40k universe...

Supposed to quite a few, I believe. I like to imagine there are.

Thunderwolf Cavalry is a crime against humanity.

Wolves, too.

Anyway, I'm bored of Prodos and their dull models. Certainly when GW have new 'stealer cult models almost out!

 

[daddyorchips]

I don't find any of this any " worse" or stupid, ugly, lame etc as Thunderwolf Cavalry, for example.

hard to argue with that!

 

[AranaszarSzuur]

I wonder if there isn't a larger amount of Sisters of Battle than Marines in Wh40k universe...

Supposed to quite a few, I believe. I like to imagine there are.

Sometimes I think a proportionalhammer would be cool. With very small and expensive but powerful Marine armies and majority of armies being based on how common they are in the universe.
It could be done through model pricing. For example fielding an Imperial Guard force of equivalent point value would be cheaper than fielding a Marine force.

 

[Aiteal]

Tits and arse aside, I think the game will die a death, I can't imagine any 40k homage/rip-off board game selling at a time when the new Genestealer Cult board game is launched.

 

[Zhu Bajie]

But still referencing the biomechanical aspects, the biomech, cyber, alien-skulls and junk-bot bits don't seem to have come together cohesively in the way Giger may have done (but then very few artists can).

I wonder if Giger fapped to his works

I have no idea. Giger was married to Li Tobler, the model for a number of his paintings, both before and after her suicide. He was also a renowned womaniser and one assumes the relationship between his art and his sex life was more than just his hand.

I'm not really comfortable with the idea of the Crusades being evoked in this way (nor with Hasbro / GWs use in the 90s), being far too tied into the medieval roots of anti-semitism and islamophobia.

I wish someone would bring back Laserburn and Red Redemption .

Wishes really can come true! http://www.15mm.co.uk/collections/laser ... ce-fiction