Recasts - Guilt by association?

[Golgfag1]

Morning All,

So here I'am doing my usual morning trawl of my e-bay searches, when I spot this:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/112098325666? ... EBIDX%3AIT

I look at the picture and think - recasts, I then look at the title & description and who-ever's selling them has declared them as re-casts, not a problem (that's for others to sort out), I take another look and think to myself their not bad, I'd like a closer look to confirm my initial conclusion and then thought - if, I buy them, do I then taint my existing collection, because I've brought re-casts?

One to ponder.

Paul / Golgfag1

 

[Wheeling Turn]

Hmmm well if you would sell them that way in Germany you`ll get into serious troubles.
But leave that away I think it is a way of personel thinking. Some old models and books (think of ROC) are sold at incredible high prices and not everyone is able or willing to pay.
I once bought a bunch of models and upon arrival found among them two recast skaven models. No bad recasts so I put them on my lead pile to paint them. I do not think that they taint my vermin army but we will see if I loose more games then normal.

 

[dieselmonkey]

]I take another look and think to myself their not bad

Really? I had to take it by the description as to what they even were. They look like they were taken from plasticine moulds!

 

[Chico]

Arhhh recasts eh?

I have to say I swing backwards and forwards on them and there is many many grey areas in my mind but I do tend to think for the most part that if the figure is OOP and being offered as recast for a low price then it can be fair game.

But I wouldn't buy a Chinacast Forgeworld figures that float around because it's not OOP.

 

[Leromides]

Recasting is theft, there's no doubt about it but as Judge Dredd would probably point out no one is completely innocent. When it comes to breaking rules and laws it's a question of scale and I would rate the recasting of long out of production figures as very low on that scale indeed. If you had proudly announced the purchase of these then I wouldn't be calling for you to be tarred and feathered. Would I buy them? No but I suspect that's only because I haven't come across a similar lot that I want enough. If you want it enough the nagging doubts are quashed. The fact that you felt strongly enough to post your doubts suggests to me that your misgivings are considerable and, since you're clearly a gentleman of quality, unlikely to fade. So at the risk of breaking into some kind of pseudo-Disney musical number I would listen to your heart on stuff like this and if you feel such figures would taint your collection in your eyes then you are almost certainly right.

 

[Golgfag1]

Thanks for the interesting responses people, most enlightening, but I have to draw you back to my original post "I'd like a closer look to confirm my initial conclusion and then thought - if, I buy them, do I then taint my existing collection, because I've brought re-casts?" I have a considerable amount of what I think to be original Slann and thus Slann slaves. I only say 'original', because I traded for them over twenty years ago, hopefully, before the increased interest in such things, from a 'reputable' dealer, in good faith.



If, I'd brought the advertised re-casts, my 'presumed' original collection could be considered compromised by association, even though I only purchased them to confirm my original conclusion, hence my initial question.

Needless to say, following my post - someone purchased the recasts and other similar items from the seller - all I can now say is 'it wasn't me!' The question now is who did and what are their intentions?

Paul / Golgfag1

 

[Asslessman]

I'm thinking like Richard and others here. Though I won't buy in production models, getting recasts labelled as such of rare and/or unreleased won't be an issue to me (primarily because I tend to never sell anything or so little and I buy to paint). We all have recasts in our collections so wether with honest or not intentions they're here.
If you want to sell me confrontation stuff, please go on? Wanting to sell the latest kits ripoffs? please go some other place.

 

[Bosco]

I don't think there's any problem with buying recasts.
And to assume that your collection would be "tainted" by their presence is a bit silly if you ask me.

As long as you're not selling them to another collector as real there should be no problem.
Reproduction WW2 uniforms used by historical reenactors don't drive down the actual collector value of authentic period uniforms.

 

[dieselmonkey]

As long as you're not selling them to another collector as real there should be no problem.
Reproduction WW2 uniforms used by historical reenactors don't drive down the actual collector value of authentic period uniforms.

That's because they're easily identifiable as repro though (they're not 70+years old for a start!), good recasts are near-indistinguishable to the originals, and so *do* affect the value of originals. If I were to cast up 20000 sets of McDeath figures, the originals would become near-worthless.

 

[Fimm McCool]

If I were to cast up 20000 sets of McDeath figures, the originals would become near-worthless.

On the plus side, we could all then have the chance to own these really nice chunks of lead.

 

[Zhu Bajie]

If, I'd brought the advertised re-casts, my 'presumed' original collection could be considered compromised by association,

Yep, that's the way I see it. There is very little in the way of provenance in miniature collecting, if you raise the suspicion that some of your models are re-casts, then that suspicion will be raised for the rest. Ultimately unless it's sealed in blister, then there can always be suspicions. Whether the buyer cares or not is another matter.

If I were to cast up 20000 sets of McDeath figures, the originals would become near-worthless.

3D scanners and printers are getting better and more widely available all the time. I reckon these designs are going to be very, very easily available, legally or not, within a decade. We're at the peak of the bubble, and nobody under 30 is going to have any nostalgia about these dodgy 80s designs, so near-worthlessness is kind of inevitable IMHO.

 

[Erny]

Apparently that’s what happened with the dinky toy bubble, without scanners involved.

The mortality rate of the collectors only increased with each passing year meaning fewer collectors and more collections making their way onto the market.

I don't doubt that ultimately our collections will become worth less and less though not worthless, they have some intrinsic value. I've bought a few miniatures at silly prices because I wanted them now and not in 30 years’ time, they weren’t bought as investments, I will never sell them and don't care if they become worth far less than I paid. I'm not overly bothered if people get the same miniatures as recasts at a much lower price, I guess my moral problem is people making large amounts of money at the original artist’s expense. But then that sort of happens even with official figures when they get sold for hundreds the original artist will have been paid next to nothing for that one particular cast.

I suspect the best thing to do if you want to use recasts and not taint your collection is to just not tell anyone .

 

[AranaszarSzuur]

I think that OOP RT models especially the metal ones like C100 marines getting 3D scanned and 3D printer would be wonderful. The models are lead which means they aren't durable and they are a health hazard.

Sadly, the law doesn't acknowledge the idea of abandonware. And GW doesn't treat Oldhammer as seriously as WotC treats OD&D. A re-print of the RT books and WDs would be wonderful .

 

[Bosco]

As long as you're not selling them to another collector as real there should be no problem.
Reproduction WW2 uniforms used by historical reenactors don't drive down the actual collector value of authentic period uniforms.

That's because they're easily identifiable as repro though (they're not 70+years old for a start!), good recasts are near-indistinguishable to the originals, and so *do* affect the value of originals. If I were to cast up 20000 sets of McDeath figures, the originals would become near-worthless.

If they're properly marked as reproductions then it shouldn't effect the GW collector's pricetag unless that price was being generally inflated by the rarity of the model overall rather than the rarity of the genuine production model.

If people attempting to collect the entire McDeath set are willing to knowingly introduce reproductions to their collection rather than pay for the real deal then the price-drop for real McDeath figures would just be correcting for the actual market-value of genuine GW to collectors.

 

[Zhu Bajie]

As long as you're not selling them to another collector as real there should be no problem.
Reproduction WW2 uniforms used by historical reenactors don't drive down the actual collector value of authentic period uniforms.

That's because they're easily identifiable as repro though (they're not 70+years old for a start!), good recasts are near-indistinguishable to the originals, and so *do* affect the value of originals. If I were to cast up 20000 sets of McDeath figures, the originals would become near-worthless.

If they're properly marked as reproductions then it shouldn't effect the GW collector's pricetag unless that price was being generally inflated by the rarity of the model overall rather than the rarity of the genuine production model.

If people attempting to collect the entire McDeath set are willing to knowingly introduce reproductions to their collection rather than pay for the real deal then the price-drop for real McDeath figures would just be correcting for the actual market-value of genuine GW to collectors.

The reality is the majority of OOP Citadel collectors are not hardcore or speculative collectors, they're gamers and modellers who like the old designs. Some of these guys will pay 'collectors prices' to get the design, some will pay for illegal ripoffs to get the design, some will happily buy legal modern productions (Foundry, Ral Partha et. al.) rather than old lead. Quality of the cast and ability to paint it up and get it on the table is far more important than its authenticity (which unless BNIB is kind of unknown). TBH the real market value is what you can get for melting a figure down and selling for scrap, anything above that is purely based on perceived scarcity of the design, not the authenticity of the manufacturer.

The market isn't that sophisticated or knowledgeable, people pass off other manufacturers models as 'rare citadel' and make a mint (remember that Battleforge Halfing Napoleon on eBay a while back?), the fact that there seem to be handfuls of 'unreleased' Stormtroopers everywhere. Fantasy Toy Soldiers isn't like comic books or trading cards with detailed grading systems and published priceguides, and nothing like antiques or fine art.

Most recasts aren't being made by someone trying to rip off the OOP collectors market, they were made at the time,by cheapskate wargamers, whilst the product was still being sold - exactly the same kind of people who buy the cheap chinese forgeworld. Its much more about getting a 3000pt army on the table.

 

[dieselmonkey]

If they're properly marked as reproductions then it shouldn't effect the GW collector's pricetag unless that price was being generally inflated by the rarity of the model overall rather than the rarity of the genuine production model.

If people attempting to collect the entire McDeath set are willing to knowingly introduce reproductions to their collection rather than pay for the real deal then the price-drop for real McDeath figures would just be correcting for the actual market-value of genuine GW to collectors.

And therein lies the issue, recasts aren't marked as reproductions, and even if they were, the price originals fetch is not due to them being original and from GW, it's down to the relative scarcity and current demand for them.

There's also the fact that only GW can legally reproduce them, for anyone else to do it is illegal.

 

[area23]

Personally I don't care at all if out of production mini's are being recast.I really dont understand the fuzz. I only wish some old stuff was still available.
The problem is when recasts are sold as real. That's just really dumb from any point of view. But selling a vintage bloodbowl starplayer for 30 quid is just as stupid.
I can't believe people are thinking about this issue in terms of lost resale value and dropping prices of collections. I mean, buying miniatures for speculation? Where's the fun in that?

And I bought a resin anniversary space marine on aliexpress and I don't feel guity about it. I actually think it's very funny this expensive, collectable, rare, very special, buy now or never buisiness has triggered this bizarre pirate copy mechanism. Both just don't make sense.

the ebay sale mentioned above is clearly someone who resells something that he apparently suspects is a recast and he's honest about it. It's not someone selling recasts as the real thing.

 

[Wheeling Turn]

Golgfag1 wrote:
If, I'd brought the advertised re-casts, my 'presumed' original collection could be considered compromised by association,

If the buyer is up for originals.......sure this will be the case.

When it comes to recast I do not care that much as I am after the model and not the age of the model. Some recasts are very professional especially if they are made via spin casting. As long as you know what you get you have the choice..buying or not.

IMHO if some models would be available for lets say acceptable prices it would not be that problem. The problem is that some models,books,etc rank very high in the price scale and some collectors are tempted to buy recasts simply because they are cheaper.
Take some Foundry Bretonnians/Vikings....they are the same as the old Citadel. So I buy these instead of the old Citadel.

Back to you Golgfag1: If you want a collection without recasts do not buy them. If you sell your collection and tell the buyer that there are some recasts among the models he will surely be suspicious about the whole collection. Especially with the rarer kinds among them if you have them in bigger numbers.

 

[quindia]

I have a lot of 80's and 90's models that I bought in the store when they were released that I am sure are original, but since I started collecting in the last few years, I'm also sure I have some recasts. It doesn't bother me and if I could buy a whole army of Slann recasts I would. As a few others pointed out, my primary motivation is to paint the old sculpts for use on the game table. Once that's accomplished I suspect they are very few people who could identify the recasts from the originals.

It is annoying to have to pay collector prices for recasts, but I don't see much way around that. Anyone selling recasts can't really publish the fact. The auction from the original post was probably someone passing on something he had rather than something he cast himself and labeling them as 'suspected recasts' was a good move.

Also I think the value of a collection is relative. I probably have as much original Oldhammer and Rogue Trader and lead as anyone, but even if I could find a buyer for the whole collection in one go, I doubt it would amount to much more than a couple of mortgage payments. They are worth far more than that to me, even if some are recasts...

...and yes, I am against recasts of models that you can still buy from current manufacturers! I have an entire army of Bretonnians quietly mustered in storage that I bought from Foundry last year. I wish they would recast the Slann!