Realms of Chaos - The Eye of God

[SnufflePox]

Hi - new here (I have posted an intro though, honest - not just popping up to milk y'all for your thoughts!) so will launch straight in..
I'm after some second opinions on how to apply the Realms of Chaos 'The Eye of God' reward and the wizard / non-wizard distinction.

Where a champion has neither 6+ mutations or rewards and rolls TEOG, a they receive +1 A and +1W if they "began as wizards" (StD page 45) or "..the Champion is a wizard" (LatD page 285.
A non-wizard instead receives one magic level, plus associated spells, MPs and power level.

Question. If my (starting) non-wizard gets TEOG, gains the magic level (etc), and later re-rolls TEOG, do they then receive just the +1A and +1W, or a second magic level etc? Essentially, are they now classed as a wizard by virtue of the previous TEOG reward - they did not 'begin as a wizard' in line with the StD reward wording, but is the champion now 'functionally' a wizard, which would trigger the later LatD definition..
If gaining magic use (by whatever means) makes them a wizard, then the logic is that TEOG can never elevate a champion past the first level of magic use.. which feels a bit limiting for the Chaos pantheon!
On the other hand, the idea that a starting wizard will never get a magic boost, but non-wizards could be elevated beyond them in terms of magic abilities feels a bit harsh on starting wizards and also thematically.. weak (not that this is beyond the Chaos Gods - more that the starting wizard wouldn't enjoy the same benefits)
So I guess two parts to the question - firstly a rules-as-written interpretation, and secondly, whatever your mileage for part one, what are the implications of that choice to non/wizards.
It really doesn't help that the wording changes in LatD - 'began as' is at least very clear, even if the implications feel a bit off to me.
Part of me wants to apply all TEOG buffs to any champion rolling it, which definitely 'incorrect' as written, but feels fair and thematic..
Or maybe roll off between the two options? Or player chooses?
So yeah - thoughts?
Thanks!

 

[MichaelStockin]

I will have a read later.

it, which definitely 'incorrect' as written, but feels fair and thematic..

Before I do read and have a ponder, this seems an important distinction.
If you are playing with others and they share the same view then do that.
It seems daft to both agree to do something you don't like, so best to do what you both do like?

 

[SnufflePox]

Hehe - that's a very good point! Playing with a gaming mate of 30 odd years - it's a very loosey goosey campaign (we use NOC forces and loys of other made up on the fly nonsense), and the ruleset is already house ruled all over the shop, but we do try to start from rules-as-written before we go rogue - on this one, I'm not really sure how to define that start point, so while I'm very happy to go flying off piste (once again), I'd genuinely like to at least start that journey as the Gods intended.
Also, when it comes to the thematic implications (non-wizards potentially overtaking wizards for magic use with one interpretation, say), we're really not settled on a viewpoint.
This isn't a live issue yet as only one of us has got TEOG for the first time now - reading through it, the potential issue arose.. hence the post in here

 

[SnufflePox]

Urgh. Must find edit function.. NPC, not NOC..

 

[MichaelStockin]

Yes, it does clearly say champions who began doesn't it.
I would rule that this means when you rolled up the champion he started as a wizard.

I would do it thus:


Any model that was initially a wizard as rolled on page 40 gets the A+1 and W+1.

Anyone who started not as a wizard gains a magic level. (thus a non wizard starter champion getting TEOG 3 times could now be a level 3 wizard) (But also a wizard starter getting TEOG 3 times would have A+3 and W+3)
So yes starting non wizards get as spell castery as wizards, but starting wizards get as fighty as fighters.

As you say those that started as non-wizards could get elevated better than those that started as wizards, but then those that started as non-fighters could get elevated better than those that started as fighters.

Swings and round-abouts?



BUT do consider that you do not need to accept subsequent TEOG if you think it sucks, you can roll on the specific chaos gods charts.

 

[MichaelStockin]

PS: Page 39 says: "A Champion of Chaos begins life as a randomly generated profile."

So yes your starting non wizard would get a new magic level each time.

 

[ManicMan]

Lets see..
* Champion has rolled up, not a wizard. fine
* Chaos Reward of The Eye of God. He has less then Six gifts and Six attributes, then gets Chaos Weapon. As he isn't a wizard, gets one magic level and associated spells. I'm taking it that he isn't following Khorne, so Magic is fine.

Question is 'does the champion become a wizard when he gains magic level?'
Answer: Yes. Wizard is the term for anyone that has the ability to cast magic via training or natural ability. So the Champion is now a wizard after gaining that first level.

* Then gets a Second eye of God reward.. "Champions who began as wizards receive a bonus of +1 attacks and wounds."

well, looking at this as the flow chart which is kinda is, he has began as a wizard. I can see the confusion because he hasn't began LIFE (as such) as a wizard, but he was a wizard, then gained the eye, so he has began this pass of the flow as a wizard. If he wasn't a wizard, he would get the one magic level to became a wizard.
SO I would say each time you run "Chaos Rewards table" to give a reward, he begins as whatever state he is in. In this case, first time you run it, he 'Began' non-wizard champion. Second time he 'Began' as a wizard Champion.

I think that's probably the easiest way to think of it and is consistent (such as it can be) with all rules.

 

[MichaelStockin]

SO I would say each time you run "Chaos Rewards table" to give a reward, he begins as whatever state he is in.

I must disagree.



Began is started out, what you describe makes sense if it said currently, but began is the beginning, this is even defined on page 39 as noted above.

Began never means in the current state?

 

[ManicMan]

mm.. I can see what you mean. I was just wondering because how they.. love to not have an editor to check terms and keep them right.

checking with page 76 of Slaves to Darkness, it does talk about acquiring magical powers. A champion who is not a wizard (and not Khorne of course) can acquire a level of mastery with spells and points via the eye of god reward, and mutants can acquire attribute of magician (though there is a .. major curse for Khorne ones)..

"A wizard who can already cast spells receives the next level of magic above that he can already use."

bad grammar but easy enough to understand

"A Chaos follower who can already use all levels of magic granted additional spells and magic points (with a corresponding increase in power level) starting with level 1 spells, which are determined as usual"

awful grammar but.. yep, that does seam to make it clear that a chaos follower given levels of magic is NOT a wizard, just a chaos follower with magic. So yep, Begin only refers to at point of creation. The beginning is a very delicate time.