Fimm McCool
Lord
Their ineptitude caught up with them? Trying to work with them as a distributor was so painful, months and months before shipping. I hope someone is able to pick up the ranges though, there were some nice models in there. It seems like at least one miniatures company per month going down the pan at the moment. High (and rising) metal costs, painful overseas shipping rates, soaring rates/bills... it's not easy.
twisted moon
Moderator
that's a shame, and a shock to me at least.
Fencig
Serf
oh i don't doubt it, the rent alone will kill you. I don't think anyone ever got rich doing this, that's for sure. In the last 2 years i spent thousands on buying up metal, my gut instinct was buy now or regret later, and it sucks to see it coming true. It was just last year Reaper announced they were basically doubling their metal model costs, and i don't think any new ones will be released, or maybe even re-cast
i don't know the history, but sounds a lot like Blacktree and many others. original company goes under, bought out by an investor or enthusiast, then they struggle, can't get stuff out to buyers, eventually goes belly up. from the web-site
At least they had the decency to turn off their pay-window, unlike Blacktree which contninues to take peoples money
OldManPaints
Vassal
So Black tree is actually dead? thank God you said...I was gonna take a punt.
Fencig
Serf
so the big question, who's next?
I've ordered or in the process of ordering some RAFM models This week from flea-bay. Not a huge fan of the stuff in general but i do like some of it for sure, and always sad to see one go. As someone mentioned, rent, cost of the metal, labor, etc.
+ the really big one, people just seem to like the printed stuff and many are willing to spend the $400. to get a good printer with the resin, neutralizers, and whatever (not an expert, just anectodal). Personally, i don't care for it, either the material or the hyper-stylized fashion of some of them. Not that they don't look impressive, some are quite beautiful, but some of the models look like they would take 3 months to paint. Not my cup-o-tea
I'm not worried about GW, say what you will about Evil corporations but they do know how to make the $$$ flow.
It's Reaper, and some of the small operations still casting the legacy metal models, I'm concerned
I've ordered or in the process of ordering some RAFM models This week from flea-bay. Not a huge fan of the stuff in general but i do like some of it for sure, and always sad to see one go. As someone mentioned, rent, cost of the metal, labor, etc.
+ the really big one, people just seem to like the printed stuff and many are willing to spend the $400. to get a good printer with the resin, neutralizers, and whatever (not an expert, just anectodal). Personally, i don't care for it, either the material or the hyper-stylized fashion of some of them. Not that they don't look impressive, some are quite beautiful, but some of the models look like they would take 3 months to paint. Not my cup-o-tea
I'm not worried about GW, say what you will about Evil corporations but they do know how to make the $$$ flow.
It's Reaper, and some of the small operations still casting the legacy metal models, I'm concerned
Fimm McCool
Lord
Pretty much anyone trying to make a living from it is going to be in increasing jeopardy. Hasslefree and Heresy have been wobbling for some years. Reaper will probably be ok 'cos Bones, but I can imagine them pricing their metals like Darksword as 'boutique' models. Thing is, yes metal price has gone up, a lot, but lead alloy is still under £20 per kg. That's roughly 50p worth of metal in a standard 28mm figure. Up from 20p per figure 5 years ago, but on a £3, £5, £8 model... not all that significant. Historical companies (in the main) still seem to be ok cranking out 28mm models at around £2 each. I know historical gamers who would consider that extortion, but...
Citizen Sade
Baron
... will happily buy plastic and spend hours snipping off bits, removing mould lines & gluing bits together? Life's too short and their time is obviously cheap.
Remember the broohaha when Bryan Ansell, pbuh, suggested that figures were underpriced?
Fencig
Serf
good point, the metal itself has likely only gone up with inflation, keeping level with everything else and maybe even cheaper relative to things like food. The bigger problem is it's labor intensive, the spin casting doesn't look quick or easy. You got molten metal, creating the mold, prepping it, the actual spin-cast, then peeling the molds off, inspection, some minimal clean-up, inspection for mis-casts, rejects, etc.
Contrast that with sprue plastic,
at one time the plastic injection mold was huge investment, now you can get a mold made in China for $5K, and it will spit out thousands of perfect parts rpeatedly and quickly, that fit together almost flawlessly.
I'm a sucker for the metal though, not sure why. I think it's just the challenge. Somethign like this, the average person would be like " oh hell no, i'm not doing that".
For me, it's like "hmmmm, i bet i can do this". get the drill, the files, the clamps, rubber-bands, epoxy, pliers and let's go! But I'm old, I grew up with models and learend patience the hard way. The genertaion that grew up with electronics wants nothign to do with this (juts came in last night, Spanish company)
Fencig
Serf
right, the actual cast , what about the rest? While paying soemone to do it at $25. / hour. + benefits
Injection mold, one person can baby-sit, what 10 machines. make sure the drop hopper doesn't overflow.
I toured a facility injection molding hard plastic, cartridge bearings for applications that wouldn't tolerate metal parts , like an MRI machine. the machine would ka-chunk, ka-chunk, and with every Ka-chunk it spit out 3 dozen parts (going off memory) .
As you guys pointed out earlier, no reason, at all, for this to cost 15 pounds per model, but in a corporation you need that money to support the grossly bloated executive/administrative strucure, the marketing, and all the rest of it.
it's why i support the small makers, even though there is a small chance your money might go poof! if you catch them in a death spiral, like Blacktree.
Got a RAFM model yesterday too, a Drow sniper from the "Death in the Dark " game where they're called Vaneer or sum-such. It's really good, the stuff always looks better in person that any photo.
Injection mold, one person can baby-sit, what 10 machines. make sure the drop hopper doesn't overflow.
I toured a facility injection molding hard plastic, cartridge bearings for applications that wouldn't tolerate metal parts , like an MRI machine. the machine would ka-chunk, ka-chunk, and with every Ka-chunk it spit out 3 dozen parts (going off memory) .
As you guys pointed out earlier, no reason, at all, for this to cost 15 pounds per model, but in a corporation you need that money to support the grossly bloated executive/administrative strucure, the marketing, and all the rest of it.
it's why i support the small makers, even though there is a small chance your money might go poof! if you catch them in a death spiral, like Blacktree.
Got a RAFM model yesterday too, a Drow sniper from the "Death in the Dark " game where they're called Vaneer or sum-such. It's really good, the stuff always looks better in person that any photo.
ManicMan
Lord
$25 an hour? …. well.. the USA is a pretty rich country.. (it would make £20 in the UK, where you would probably get around £13 per hour for such a job)
of course, this is spin casting for a very small company. Even the mould making are pretty small time, but can be done probably cheaper for a huge company but then, you need to be a huge company for such things.. which is what confuses me when you think huge companies charge huge prices which aren't really in proportion.. oh well.
also depends on the plastic machine, what is being made. On the whole, Metal is cheaper and higher quality but probably becomes cheaper when you are dealing with thousands mark, but you can get metal stampers for figures too.. it gets very complex when you look at industrial scale stuff. I would have to 100% leave bits up to more business people.
Blacktree hasn't been around for years.. EOE/Blacktree/Harlequin is the whole thing and kinda been hit and miss for SOOO many years, it's not really a spiral.. in fact, with how it goes up and down at times.. like a while where he was pretty much dead, then back again, then dead etc.. Maybe death splat? I might have to go into my basic knowledge of non-Euclidean geometry...
of course, this is spin casting for a very small company. Even the mould making are pretty small time, but can be done probably cheaper for a huge company but then, you need to be a huge company for such things.. which is what confuses me when you think huge companies charge huge prices which aren't really in proportion.. oh well.
also depends on the plastic machine, what is being made. On the whole, Metal is cheaper and higher quality but probably becomes cheaper when you are dealing with thousands mark, but you can get metal stampers for figures too.. it gets very complex when you look at industrial scale stuff. I would have to 100% leave bits up to more business people.
Blacktree hasn't been around for years.. EOE/Blacktree/Harlequin is the whole thing and kinda been hit and miss for SOOO many years, it's not really a spiral.. in fact, with how it goes up and down at times.. like a while where he was pretty much dead, then back again, then dead etc.. Maybe death splat? I might have to go into my basic knowledge of non-Euclidean geometry...
Fimm McCool
Lord
Oh absolutely the casting is the fast bit. The sorting and packing takes a little longer. I grant you it's slower than injection moulding, but there the material cost is tiny. That £15 kit? Probably 2p and 30 seconds to produce. Packing's easier too as you just slide the whole sprue into a box.
Fencig
Serf
it dpends on where you like, there are parts of the US that are very wealthy, like colorado has a lot of high tech, smarty pants people with high paying jobs which skews everything $$$ up ( i live here, but sadly not in that dempgraphic 
there are parts of the US where the minimum wage is still $7.00/hour, although i doubt you can get someone to work for that anymore, regardless of poverty.
I'm surprised the UK is that low, i thought it was an expensive place too.
it's hard to predict what will happen moving forward with Metal. Reminds me a lot of LP's, remember when everyonre ran out and bought CD's? That's what these STL minis remind me of, quick, cheap, and they look (sound) ok, but eventually people either get nostalgic, want something more tangible than a chunk of plastic, or they want the highest quality possible.
who knows
there are parts of the US where the minimum wage is still $7.00/hour, although i doubt you can get someone to work for that anymore, regardless of poverty.
I'm surprised the UK is that low, i thought it was an expensive place too.
it's hard to predict what will happen moving forward with Metal. Reminds me a lot of LP's, remember when everyonre ran out and bought CD's? That's what these STL minis remind me of, quick, cheap, and they look (sound) ok, but eventually people either get nostalgic, want something more tangible than a chunk of plastic, or they want the highest quality possible.
who knows
ManicMan
Lord
I don't remember everyone rushing to buy CDs..
Sound quality of CD over LP.. yeah.. don't get me started.. but basically CDs are better. UNLESS you do high grade LPs which.. weren't much of a thing back in the day.. It's like comparing a Type 1 Audio cassette quality to a Chrome type.. Chrome is FAR FAR better but you pretty much aren't gonna find any releases on it and any new cassettes you buy these days are the lowest of the low and there hasn't been a decent player for.. I don't know how long.. late 90s early 2000s really..
I looked up industrial spin-casters.. Oh boy. Multiple moulds at a time, Huge pieces can be cast.. takes up more room any then room in my house has.
UK is far from an expensive place in a way (the fact I live in an area which has been in the top 20 of the most deprived places in England for.. quite some time, probably bias' me)
Sound quality of CD over LP.. yeah.. don't get me started.. but basically CDs are better. UNLESS you do high grade LPs which.. weren't much of a thing back in the day.. It's like comparing a Type 1 Audio cassette quality to a Chrome type.. Chrome is FAR FAR better but you pretty much aren't gonna find any releases on it and any new cassettes you buy these days are the lowest of the low and there hasn't been a decent player for.. I don't know how long.. late 90s early 2000s really..
I looked up industrial spin-casters.. Oh boy. Multiple moulds at a time, Huge pieces can be cast.. takes up more room any then room in my house has.
UK is far from an expensive place in a way (the fact I live in an area which has been in the top 20 of the most deprived places in England for.. quite some time, probably bias' me)
Fencig
Serf
i do, one guy i knew in particular bought hundreds, then someone broke in and stole them all. So there he was with his multi-disc player that could screech out 16 bit 44Khz for hours on end and no discs. Today, the used record shops will pay 25 to 50 cents a piece for them, which is $0.5 for you brits.
I still have maybe 2-dozen, belonged to my wife, some decent music in there. She would play them while cooking, vacuuming, reading a book, etc. I don't listen to them, but i still have a carousel player that holds 5. Of course Streaming completely replaced all of this
started assembling a complex metal model 2 night ago, and i have to say i don't blame people who want to just snip a few sprue pieces off. Still, I'm buying it up as much as possible.
so many places now, it's all Resin, and their previous metal models are usually at an online game store, that in turn bought out stock from a closed/outa-business brick and mortar shop.
It's hard to keep things in perspective, but i think it's important to try. Human civilizations is not static, and change comes like it or not.
This one is especially challenging. I'm sure you guys can relate. You pull the pieces out and the fit-up is so rough you can't even tell what goes where. Luckilly this manuifacturer has some pretty good pics on their site. Still, the piece on the right, 4 pieces including the wagon driver, good 5 to 6 hours to really fit together nicely. I'm talking gaps of max .25mm at an given location, and preferaby less.
I also drilled out the wheels and the carriage base. no way those short, tiny 1mm nubs were going ot hold this thing up. Drilled it for 1.5mm stainless rod.
