OOP, PDFS & COPYRIGHT ©
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Galadrin
Member
ardyer":3fb7htli said:
Certainly, no argument there! If anything, because copyright laws are actually so complex and thorny in practice (dependent upon your country, potentially international agreements, fair use etc), there is even more reason to stay out of the grey areas. Saying it is more nuanced than a simple reading is not to say everything is suddenly fair game
Mr Papafakis
Member
I'm sorry, but I find this statement made about recasting a bit strange,
DAMAGE TO COLLECTORS MARKET
While this is difficult to prove, flooding the market with cheap (or free) versions of out-of-print materials will decrease demand for original product. This will devalue your collection over time. Would you recast the Citadel Giant in resin and send it to someone? Moreover once recast miniatures have a habit of proliferating, you might recast a figure for your own army, thinking it's fine as it is personal use, but when you sell your collection, it's passed on to someone who is non-the-wiser.
This is a "personal opinion", not a legal issue!
There is nothing illegal about recasting a product that has been bought....so long as you don't profit from it.
It's like saying to someone "You can't fit an after market part to your car, coz the next guy who buys it will be getting an inferior car"..........get real!
I'm by no means advocating selling or trading recast minis here, but why should we be scared about sharing skills about how to do it? It's not illegal!
Shouldn't we only be concerning ourselves about legal issues, not personal one's?
My two cents.
DAMAGE TO COLLECTORS MARKET
While this is difficult to prove, flooding the market with cheap (or free) versions of out-of-print materials will decrease demand for original product. This will devalue your collection over time. Would you recast the Citadel Giant in resin and send it to someone? Moreover once recast miniatures have a habit of proliferating, you might recast a figure for your own army, thinking it's fine as it is personal use, but when you sell your collection, it's passed on to someone who is non-the-wiser.
This is a "personal opinion", not a legal issue!
There is nothing illegal about recasting a product that has been bought....so long as you don't profit from it.
It's like saying to someone "You can't fit an after market part to your car, coz the next guy who buys it will be getting an inferior car"..........get real!
I'm by no means advocating selling or trading recast minis here, but why should we be scared about sharing skills about how to do it? It's not illegal!
Shouldn't we only be concerning ourselves about legal issues, not personal one's?
My two cents.
ardyer
Member
Re: OOP, PDFS & COPYRIGHT ©
Okay, standard disclaimer: I'm am American ip attorney, but copyright law is largely harmonized across Europe and the USA. However, your local laws may vary.
First, it is a misconception that profit is required for copyright infringement. It is not. Recasting is illegal whether it's for your own personal use our for public sale.
Second, there is something called "contributory infringement." If you encourage others the infringe, that potentially carries its own liability. That's the risk of telling others how to do it.
Third, if you are un-happy with the current state of copyright laws, please write your local legislative representative and tell them it needs to change.
optimus":9wkd3qbl said:
Okay, standard disclaimer: I'm am American ip attorney, but copyright law is largely harmonized across Europe and the USA. However, your local laws may vary.
First, it is a misconception that profit is required for copyright infringement. It is not. Recasting is illegal whether it's for your own personal use our for public sale.
Second, there is something called "contributory infringement." If you encourage others the infringe, that potentially carries its own liability. That's the risk of telling others how to do it.
Third, if you are un-happy with the current state of copyright laws, please write your local legislative representative and tell them it needs to change.
Mr Papafakis
Member
Skarsnik & Old Lead":3fwybjc9 said:optimus":3fwybjc9 said:
It might be worth checking your facts before you start posting stuff like this as the gospel truth.
Edit: Ninja'd by ardyer, who uses big words and clearly knows more than me
In pretty sure I know the facts about Australian copyright law.....even without a degree on the subject!
ardyer
Member
Re: OOP, PDFS & COPYRIGHT ©
Okay, so I just checked on Australian copyright law (statutes, not case law) and there is, actually, a private use exception. However, it specifically applies to "recordings" and not sculpture.
Either way though, this is an international board and I can we have to apply the strictest set of policies here.
optimus":2mxt7umg said:Skarsnik & Old Lead":2mxt7umg said:optimus":2mxt7umg said:
It might be worth checking your facts before you start posting stuff like this as the gospel truth.
Edit: Ninja'd by ardyer, who uses big words and clearly knows more than me
In pretty sure I know the facts about Australian copyright law.....even without a degree on the subject!
Okay, so I just checked on Australian copyright law (statutes, not case law) and there is, actually, a private use exception. However, it specifically applies to "recordings" and not sculpture.
Either way though, this is an international board and I can we have to apply the strictest set of policies here.
Mr Papafakis
Member
quote="ardyer"]
optimus said:
Zhu Bajie
Member
optimus":20tjrzbe said:
If I use another person’s work for a non-profit purpose, do I need permission?
There is no special exception that allows you to use a work without permission just because it is
used for a non-profit purpose. The copyright owner may give permission for a low fee, or no fee, if
the use is non-profit, but you still need to get permission.
Reference: http://www.copyright.org.au/search-resu ... +I+Need+It
Just saying.
ardyer
Member
Re: OOP, PDFS & COPYRIGHT ©
Not quoting because it would be too long of a post. You're correct. There is a difference between written law and enforced law. I think that's where this idea that you have to sell it comes from. But just because it's not enforced doesn't make it less illegal.
To quote Sammy Hagar if "I can't drive 55" I'm still breaking the speed limit whether it's enforced or not.
And the problem is, you never know when it's going to start being enforced. So the operators of this web site have every right to request that people not break the law.
Not quoting because it would be too long of a post. You're correct. There is a difference between written law and enforced law. I think that's where this idea that you have to sell it comes from. But just because it's not enforced doesn't make it less illegal.
To quote Sammy Hagar if "I can't drive 55" I'm still breaking the speed limit whether it's enforced or not.
And the problem is, you never know when it's going to start being enforced. So the operators of this web site have every right to request that people not break the law.
Blue in VT
Moderator
Aryder's laast point is the most important one here IMO...it's not what you do at home that I'm worried about as a mod...it's telling people about it on this "public" space...in the community...which is much more likely to become the target of a legal complaint than you as an individual. Illegal...not illegal..enforced or nor enforced....I don't really care....it's just not worth the risk of someone coming along and shutting the doors on this community which we all have a level of investment in.
DISCLAIMER: This is my personal opinion and not that of the mod team as a whole.
Cheers,
Blue
DISCLAIMER: This is my personal opinion and not that of the mod team as a whole.
Cheers,
Blue
Harry
Moderator
I am not an IP lawyer.
.... and I am not loosing much sleep over this one.
I have copied the odd part in order to restore a damaged sculpt.
I have even reproduced the odd shield where all my efforts to hunt down the last few to have a full set for a unit have failed.
However .... much as I might want multiples of a given miniature ... however silly expensive they may have become ... I don't think I would copy a whole mini.
In the end it comes down to personal integrity ... it's about whether you think this is right and wrong, good or bad, how to go on in the world not about the subtleties of IP law or whether it is enforced or whether we get caught or not ... Same way folks decide whether to break a speeding limit or rob a bank.
... It comes down to doing what you think to be right.
Now if some folks are OK with this ... then OK ... as I said it is about personal integrity.
But my sense of it is that a number of people here, on this forum, are not OK with this.
and those of us that are should keep it as a personal thing and NOT post about it on here where it is clearly something which has the potential to upset others.
You don't see me posting anything about Pony Wars now do you?
.... and I am not loosing much sleep over this one.
I have copied the odd part in order to restore a damaged sculpt.
I have even reproduced the odd shield where all my efforts to hunt down the last few to have a full set for a unit have failed.
However .... much as I might want multiples of a given miniature ... however silly expensive they may have become ... I don't think I would copy a whole mini.
In the end it comes down to personal integrity ... it's about whether you think this is right and wrong, good or bad, how to go on in the world not about the subtleties of IP law or whether it is enforced or whether we get caught or not ... Same way folks decide whether to break a speeding limit or rob a bank.
... It comes down to doing what you think to be right.
Now if some folks are OK with this ... then OK ... as I said it is about personal integrity.
But my sense of it is that a number of people here, on this forum, are not OK with this.
and those of us that are should keep it as a personal thing and NOT post about it on here where it is clearly something which has the potential to upset others.
You don't see me posting anything about Pony Wars now do you?
Mr Papafakis
Member
I'm sorry, but "personal integrity"? Give me a break!
So it's OK to copy parts of a mini but not the whole thing? Let's ask our IP lawyer friend what he thinks of that difference.
Look, the bottom line for me is that I only copy stuff I can't get hold of anymore.....been out of production for well over a decade. If you don't want to do that & the rest of the people here don't want to do that either, fine. But don't go feeding us this "holier than thou " line that partial reproduction is ok, but full minis is a big no no.
I've already decided that I'm not going to broach the subject of recasting on this form again. If anyone is interested, there's tonnes of the stuff on YouTube.... eat your heart out.
So it's OK to copy parts of a mini but not the whole thing? Let's ask our IP lawyer friend what he thinks of that difference.
Look, the bottom line for me is that I only copy stuff I can't get hold of anymore.....been out of production for well over a decade. If you don't want to do that & the rest of the people here don't want to do that either, fine. But don't go feeding us this "holier than thou " line that partial reproduction is ok, but full minis is a big no no.
I've already decided that I'm not going to broach the subject of recasting on this form again. If anyone is interested, there's tonnes of the stuff on YouTube.... eat your heart out.
Harry
Moderator
I was on your side. 
I did say .... "those of US"
I am including myself with those that evil, law breaking brigands who engage in the odd bit of copyright theft.
I am a man of generally poor character.
I draw the line at parts I can't get hold off or broken bits. You draw the line at whole minis.
Other people draw the line somewhere different.
I don't have any problem with where you draw the line ... "Its not something that is bothering me"
But as it is bothering other people it is something that I don't talk about much on here. (Same as Pony Wars. ... Great game and no actual native Americans were killed or injured during the making of this game).
I had already spotted you had come to a similar decision on the other thread ... and good on you.
As my old dad used to say ... "Always best to go through life not bothering anyone too much."
I wasn't having a pop at you ... or indeed anyone else.
Just saying it is a personal thing.
If you can't get hold of stuff you want ... and you want it ... knock yourself out.
Just saying it may be best not to talk about it too much on this forum as some folks get upset about it.
But you had probably gathered that.
I did say .... "those of US"
I am including myself with those that evil, law breaking brigands who engage in the odd bit of copyright theft.
I am a man of generally poor character.
I draw the line at parts I can't get hold off or broken bits. You draw the line at whole minis.
Other people draw the line somewhere different.
I don't have any problem with where you draw the line ... "Its not something that is bothering me"
But as it is bothering other people it is something that I don't talk about much on here. (Same as Pony Wars.
... Great game and no actual native Americans were killed or injured during the making of this game).I had already spotted you had come to a similar decision on the other thread ... and good on you.
As my old dad used to say ... "Always best to go through life not bothering anyone too much."
I wasn't having a pop at you ... or indeed anyone else.
Just saying it is a personal thing.
If you can't get hold of stuff you want ... and you want it ... knock yourself out.
Just saying it may be best not to talk about it too much on this forum as some folks get upset about it.
But you had probably gathered that.
Zhu Bajie
Member
Harry":c46pxwjb said:But as it is bothering other people it is something that I don't talk about much on here. (Same as Pony Wars.
Harry, as far as I know there are no laws against playing Pony Wars. The same cannot be said for re-casting.
optimus":c46pxwjb said:
There's this website called eBay. With some money and some patience you will be able to obtain legitimate, legal versions of any of the items you desire.
Recasting is illegal, don't do it, and don't encourage others to do it. Simples.