Lasguns and how to fix them

Rogue Blooper

Rogue Blooper

Serf
I found that by playing lasguns and laspitols with a -2 save instead of a -1 save, they suddenly make sense.

Anyone got any thoughts on applying this rule?
 
ManicMan said:
40K: Rogue Trader? 40K 2ed? WFB 3ed: Realms of Chaos?
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Necromunda? Inquisimunda?

Do lasguns really need fixing? For me, they fill a cheap (mass-produced) & simple, reliable and low-powered niche. In some of the systems and versions mentioned, there are pokier options e.g. hellguns & hot shot power packs.
 
Inquisitor is too modern for me to know much about.. Necromunda just skirts my knowledge due to a bad experience with the only time I played it. though it appears I now have one of the original plastic house Goliath Gangers I might have to do something with..
 
40K: Rogue Trader and 40K 2ed - There's no need for lasguns if autoguns are just better and the same price.

Also armour penetration is lasers 'thing', so surely they should be better than a blunt bolt.
 
It is for Eldar grunt weapons - shuriken catapults have a -2 save - and besides, the characteristics of a weapon should reflect its physical properties and points value not the user e.g. bolts explode causing damage but are heavy and low penetration, lasers make small holes but easily, bullets go far but make small holes and are relatively low penetration.

That is then scaled up or down depending on the size of the weapon.
 
I'm still a bit confused..

going for 2ed:
Shuriken Pistol has -2 save modifier
the Catapult also has -2. both are missile launchers (of a type) which shot spinning discs. the Catapult is a special weapon not a standard grunt weapon (which is the Pistol version).
The laspistol, I don't think has a save modifier, but the Lasgun does have a-1

I can't really say too much on the 'fictional' lasers but.. in real life, I wouldn't say lasers make small holes but easily.. I would kinda say in real life, a laser is a terrible choice for a weapon. Work with lasers (Light Amplification by Stimulated Emission of Radiation so it technically should always be LASER or L.A.S.E.R.) and work out the issues with power to strength, emitter type etc.. If we take a Patel type Co2 Laser which are the strongest we know, about 20% of the power you put into it, goes into the beam and what the beam does it just burn. That's all a laser does. Burn. Decent armour or protection can block such weak weaponry, specially compared to a high powdered spinning razor sharp pointed disc of some strong alien metal. Also have less chance of being deflexed by a bit of smoke.
 
I never got past Rogue Trader and have not played it since the few years after its release.
With that in mind I assumed that las-guns were used as they were cheaper to make, needed no ammunition thus lighter to carry (great for Imperial Guard with no powered armour) and were more reliable having no moving parts.
There is no doubt something official written in RT or maybe a WD, but then part of the joy of the RT era days was thinking of reasons for some of the decisions that GW made about the setting.
 
ManicMan said:
I'm still a bit confused..

going for 2ed:
Shuriken Pistol has -2 save modifier
the Catapult also has -2. both are missile launchers (of a type) which shot spinning discs. the Catapult is a special weapon not a standard grunt weapon (which is the Pistol version).
The laspistol, I don't think has a save modifier, but the Lasgun does have a-1

I can't really say too much on the 'fictional' lasers but.. in real life, I wouldn't say lasers make small holes but easily.. I would kinda say in real life, a laser is a terrible choice for a weapon. Work with lasers (Light Amplification by Stimulated Emission of Radiation so it technically should always be LASER or L.A.S.E.R.) and work out the issues with power to strength, emitter type etc.. If we take a Patel type Co2 Laser which are the strongest we know, about 20% of the power you put into it, goes into the beam and what the beam does it just burn. That's all a laser does. Burn. Decent armour or protection can block such weak weaponry, specially compared to a high powdered spinning razor sharp pointed disc of some strong alien metal. Also have less chance of being deflexed by a bit of smoke.
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Sorry - I should have outlined why I thought they need fixing before explaining the fix!

Lasguns are crap. If you have Imperial guard units in 1st/2nd Ed 40k, you can upgrade your guards weapons at no points cost to a gun that is exactly the same but with better range.

Never mind the fluff behind it - in terms of game mechanics it makes no sense to have a bolter (+1 st) autogun (+8" range) and a lasgun (crap) as options for any unit, when the points cost for getting a bolter is no brainer, or the free upgrade to an autogun is a no brainer.

So why ever field lasguns?

The mechanics of the game are far better served if the lasgun has a characteristic that makes it worth carrying into battle.

My solution is to give it a -2 sv instead of a -1 sv, so it is advantageous against more armoured foes.

@Slave to Darkness suggestion of more range is also fine, but with autoguns filling that slot already, in my opinion it is better to have a choice that makes it a different but not useless alternative.

So that's what I'm trying to solve for - trying to justify the games mechanics of fielding a lasgun.
 
Don't know much on the Imperial Guard but for them, If they get a free upgrade, then It makes little sense to not take up that offer. But for other 'armies' they don't have that option.

2ed:
Also, lets look at comparing a lasgun to a Boltgun and Autogun.

An Autogun has a short range of up to 12", with a long of 24". It has a +1 to hit on short range with nothing on long. It only has a strength of 3, damage of 1, no save modifer with an armour penetration of D6+3.

A Lasgun has a short range of up to 12", with a long of 24". It has a +1 to hit on short range with nothing on long. it only has a strength of 3, damage of 1 with a -1 save modifier with an armour Peneration of D6+3. So far, the Lasgun is the better option compared to the Autogun.

A Boltgun has a short range of up to 12", with a long of 24". It has a +1 to hit short range with nothing on long. It has a strength of 4, damage of 1 with a -1 save modifier and an armour peneration of D6+3. So Boltgun bets out Lasgun.

My Space Wolves have no options for taking a Lasgun, with the Autogun normally coming around +1 pts for my scouts, and the Boltgun, being a fancier weapon (where the pistol was more standard fair) is +3 pts.

I don't have the 2nd book for my Orks yet.. and my Genestealer Covern has random weapon load outs as you pay points for a 'standard' type weapon then roll to see what you get.

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Looking in rogue trader (1st)
Autogun has a longer long range of up to 32", but no other differences.

A Boltgun has no difference.

A Lasgun has no difference.

So, if the Imperial guard unit has a free upgrade, take it to a bolter.
 
I had a quick look at my copy of RT and was pleased and smuggified to see my reasons why they were used was pretty accurate.
If you feel the army list is broken due to the free upgrade from lasgun to autogun, rather than change what the weapons actually do, why not change the points cost of the upgrade.




Autoguns are better in terms of mechanics, so don't make worse guns better, that can lead to an arms race and before you know it needle guns are as good as plasma cannons.


Make the upgrade 1 point per weapon.

That way the fluff stays the same, the weapons stay the same, the world building and setting stays the same.



Rogue Blooper said:
So that's what I'm trying to solve for - trying to justify the games mechanics of fielding a lasgun.
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My fix solves this by making making lasguns the cheaper option over auto-guns.



A -2 save mod is considerably better than a -1.
If you do that then Bolters are worse than las guns. Yes they have a str of 1 better, but s3 vs t3 compared to s4 vs t3 is a difference of 1 this is not as significant has doubling the armour penetration of a gun.

Las guns with a -2 save mod against typical armour with a save of 5+ make that armour worthless.
Even armour with a save of 4+ is pretty pointless now, you may as well have unarmoured troops and use the points saved in no armour on having more troops.

I think that changing the mechanics like that will have a considerable knock on effect, but making the upgrade from las-gun to the better autogun no longer free will not alter the mechanics at all.


Or look at it this way, if you could upgrade a troopers basic knife to a chainsword for free, would you then make the knife better than the chainsword, or change the points cost to upgrade?
 
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