How much is too much?

Galadrin

Vassal
When I returned to these forums in the last few months, I was surprised to see how much the community had grown. It has been truly empowering to see that the idea of Oldhammer has gotten so much attention and validation from the greater online community of gamers. I do see a strange trend entering the picture, however. Particular in our marketplace sub-forum, but also in our broader discussions, it seems like there is the slow and inevitable creep of artificially inflated miniature valuation. It struck me in the early days that while cheap scores on eBay were applauded, there was not such a secular celebration of figurine value and high prices in general. The "How to do Oldhammer" thread suggests some of the same concern—trying to return the conversation to how everyone can create an inexpensive, do-it-yourself Warhammer experience on a budget.

Today, however, I often find minis selling for £10 or even more a piece. As an American, I don't have an individual stake in this (as I am not interested in paying for shipping outside of the continental US anyway), but it strikes me as in principal contrary to the sentiment of community reciprocity itself. I do not believe that we can simply point to eBay in comparison, both because eBay prices are inherently irrational and often based on the impulse purchase, but also because eBay is a capitalistic venture that is functionally different than what a community of hobbyists with shared interests (and a communal interest in furthering the hobby) ought to be.

So my question is, in your personal view, how much is too much for a piece of pewter? Does a mass-produced piece of lead, with no broader cultural or historical relevance and no inherent utility, have no upper price limit? Is it purely governed by the buyers interest—however much he or she is willing to put down is the rational value? Is there a negative effect on the community for having a marketplace at all? Or should we argue that people that are happy to pay high rates are happy with their trades, and others who want nothing to do with it can kindly mind their own business? Is there a long term effect to commercializing this hobby and this shared space?

As a less direct question, how much have you spent on Oldhammer since the New Years? Is it more or less than you expected? How does unexpected hobby spending effect your outlook for the hobby in the future?

Edited to make the questions seem more interactive and less loaded.
 
It depends. How much do you want it, how much do others want it, how much can you spare. There is no logic that says you cannot spend whatever you like on something you want.

Is there price inflation? possibly. Will the bubble burst, again possibly but if I want something and have the spare cash why wait five or ten years to own it.
 
Since new year? I bought some pots of paint, some brushes and I think that's it. Mind you, have loads of back-logged stuff to paint - and if I buy a thing, I intend to paint it.
 
There's only so many pieces of lead out there so as the Oldhammer movement/group/community grows then the prices will get higher. Since it's supply and demand with no new supply there's no point worrying too much as it won't change anything.
 
I usually never spend more than £3 on a single figure or £5 on a larger model. If I really want something I'll go a bit higher but I don't have the budget to go much further. Usually a bit of waiting and asking around finds me what I need at the price I want to pay.
 
Ebay is a strange phenomenon; you have well-labelled auctions selling at 'market value' nestling alongside ridiculously-priced BIN items & hidden bargains. It is however, a good benchmark for the wider market value of figures (with all the associated advantages and disadvantages).

20 years ago, without the web & in a market where new was better, I sold plenty of classic figures for pennies when their value now would buy a nice evening out for me and the missus!

I prefer not to pay more than £3 for an individual figure, but have on occasion shelved out much more for particularly elusive models.

As for the bubbling bursting, who knows. But I'm buying for my own pleasure now than as an investment :)

Oh, and I've spent several ££ hundreds on Oldhammer so far in 2014, but much of it is on bulk items to sell on / trade.
 
As someone who's collected 'Oldhammer' figures for a decade or so, that inflated price has always been there, whether people who share a hobby play into it or not is another matter.

For me, it doesn't represent the actual value of the lead, it's more a monetary amount of how much I actually want the item in question. As an example, I've been collecting a Slann army for the best part of that decade, and regularly pay £5-10 each for them, but I've paid £20+ for Space Slann, and three figures for a 28mm RT figure before.

How much is too much? For me, it's more a question of how much I want it. Is that 'artificially inflated'? I'm not sure, it just means there's someone else out there that wants it as much as, or more than I do.
 
Galadrin":2fr7y7fz said:
So my question is, in your personal view, how much is too much for a piece of pewter? Does a mass-produced piece of lead, with no broader cultural or historical relevance and no inherent utility, have no upper price limit?
Edited to make the questions seem more interactive and less loaded.

You pose some interesting points and a question which I suppose is in the back of everyone's minds at some stage or another.

This depends upon how you look at your chosen subject, to say "no broader historical relevance" is not true to an extent, is it not that very history that drives us to purchase, paint and collect miniatures? That longing to step back in time and appreciate all that was then and now is gone, it is the very fact that these miniatures are part of history and out of print that dictates how much one person will pay. To a collector of Rouge Trader for example, is an original Heinrich Kemler perhaps 'worthless' but to a Scenario Pack and/or Undead Collector he is the miniature you MUST have and therefore this longing sets the tone for the price.

Some aspects of the hobby are 'cheap' - you can pick up 'common' models for a single $ whilst others will set back hundreds, as Erny said, if you want it and can afford it, buy it, these models will never be made again, so grab the chance, as more collectors complete collections, the supply in the market place lessens, thus driving prices. When I first re-entered the hobby as a serious collector a few ago I too was amazed that Herr Heinrich Kemler sold on ebay for £99 now he goes for an average of £150.

Good question and thought process though Galadrin :)

Cheers

Gary
 
eBay has gone off the rails in the last two years. There has been a very obvious change in the average price per model on US eBay. It's pretty rotten and I don't really get it bc a lot of these BIN auctions just aren't selling.
 
Agreed as to the insane prices of some things listed on ebay. Wishful thinking mostly, I guess.

I'm considering abandoning the vintage mini idea entirely, as there are some great companies out there right now, with folks working for them who could use my hard-earned $$. A successful minis company means more great projects means more for me to enjoy.
 
I don't totally with the supply/demand argument.

This is because the "oldhammer" (if that is even the correct term for collecting vintage miniatures anymore) portion of the wargaming market is only a small one.

So if you take away eBay and those "in the know" you still have potential for bargains amongst the wider Warhammer gamers and players. A prime example are the bargain finds at tournament 'Bring and Buy' or second hand stalls, shops etc.

In other words, a large portion of my oldhammer stuff I bought for under $5 a figure, which is comparable in price to new figures.
 
Yeah

this is mostly related to eBay.


I have found some awesome deals off eBay but it's few and far between these days. If you're in the US, eBay is kinda the only option for some of us.
 
I've found very fair prices on the forum, frankly, with few exceptions. I can think of a couple outliers.

Remember that sometimes part of the decision-making is "hey I love these and the price has to be above $X or I'd just as soon keep myself." And also, "I paid $X for these, and really don't want to lose money on them." Maybe prices would be lower if we were dispassionate.

I can think of a time recently when I had a high number in mind because I just needed to recoup the (too much) I spent or it wasn't worth selling. And I've also dropped prices where I could just because this is a small and fun community, and I hate to quibble about a few dollars. Doesn't seem in the "spirit".

So I suspect the answers here are highly situational.
 
Price/model, as always, is what it is worth to you. Some folks want 100% real retro & others could care less. I'd be in the former group, but I'm likely odd in that I look at collecting a WFB retro army as one involved art project. As compared to scale AFV projects, climbing, snowboarding, or any of my other bad habits, collecting 1st-3rd Citadel Gold is dirt cheap.
Additionally, It may help those stuck looking at eBay listings & auctions to not take such a passive role. If you rely on bidding & are not contacting eBay sellers directly, you are doing it wrong. ;)

The U.S. market, while mostly a barren 4th+ ed-infested wasteland, can be quite rewarding if you are a patient hunter. Without interlopers from the U.K. & abroad, due to folks not shipping ex-US, many rare finds here go for peanuts as compared to U.K. prices.
 
LeadAsbestos":26jukk1s said:
Agreed as to the insane prices of some things listed on ebay. Wishful thinking mostly, I guess.

I'm considering abandoning the vintage mini idea entirely, as there are some great companies out there right now, with folks working for them who could use my hard-earned $$. A successful minis company means more great projects means more for me to enjoy.

Thats a good perspective on the ebay prices vs supporting new companies. I am more or less done buying the vintage minis I want for now. I still keep my eyes on ebay for those one or two pieces I really want, but for the most part I have collected what I want.

In most cases I paid extremely high prices for some minis. I have four Crusader robots that I bought from four different sellers. The least expensive one was $70. Yes. One. The ebay BIN prices are out of control, but when I want something I tend to buy it. I still do my bargain hunting though.
 
I've been guilty of paying what might be too high a price for something I really wanted on ebay before- though not very often.

I did the vast majority of my OOP collecting a few years ago then had a self imposed ban.
I broke that with some sporadic "icing on the cake" purchases since discovering Orlygg's blog and this forum.

I think prices may have crept up a bit, but then on the other hand I've picked up stuff cheaper or at the same price as I did 4 years ago- I can only speak on Orks, Squats and Marines though.

As for trades/selling on the forum here, the spirit of oldhammer that Orjetax mentioned prevails in my experience.
I've received freebies and lopsided trades in my favour and have passed that on in turn-and I've never had profiteering come into a trade either.

I generally approach trades as a one for one thing (when theyre metal)- I'll trade a squat that can be found on ebay for $30 BIN for a strike force marine that's allegedly $5 BIN if that's what I'm after...with exceptions I don't value one mini over another when it comes to that, and anything I trade off I'm not going to use anyway- better it goes to another leadhead and get the love it deserves than rattle around a bitz box for the next 40 years.
 
Though I have only made "reasonable" trades since the beginning of 2014, Ihave made too much of them. I haven't been able to resist the far too numerous good opportunities presented to me... I've always collected more than I could paint but now things are going waaaay too far so I'm at the point where I'll honor the last couple of trades I have left and then I'll just give my paypal password to my wife so she can change it.
I will happily continue to trade because trading has brought me to have some very good time with some of you but ebay and other auction or 2nd hand sites just sting me in my weak spot. :oops:

I agree such challenges as WP's "how to oldhammer" are very good ways to come back to a reasonable way of playing the game (this challenge has cost me less than 5£ for 21 models)so I'll stick to what I own for the time being.
 
Oldhammer figures in general are probably selling for less than they were 5-10 years ago. For example in many instances you can easily pick up 1980s fighters or chaos warriors for a few pounds each, certainly less than £5. Around 5 - 10 years ago you would be looking at double figures for many of them. But yes, what is happening is that there are more sellers out there today who upload ridiculous BIN prices for figures. I dont know where this trend came from and I dont imagine they sell many of them, but they must sell a few.
 
I've spent £12.60 on Oldhammerish activities so far this year, and none of it on OOP minis.

As for collecting old stuff I'm only really interested in completing my collections of the 80s LoTR range and the Talisman range, and I\ll buy those at no more than £3. I'm not in a rush, it's not like I can't use the cardboard standees for Talisman! So I am willing to wait. When selling I always start at 99p and nearly always include a spare head or bit of floorplan or something with a trade or sale, and have been known to send things to people for nowt on the odd occasion.

I think the the supply/demand argument is a fallacy. For example look at Realm of Chaos: Lost and the Damned, one of the most frequently appearing items (more common than Siege, or Armies) but commands the highest price. It isn't scarcity that defines the price, it's the markets acceptance of the prices set. Citadel Miniatures were cast in their thousands, not hundreds, and there are more than enough out there for everyone, but they might be stuck in someones loft for a bit.

Is the Oldhammer Marketplace good for the community? As long as we have a multiplicity of trading OOP stuff, supporting independent manufacturers, looking out beyond the obvious, then yeah we should remain healthy, if we can use the Marketplace as both a haven and clearinghouse without the middlemen of eBay, then I can only see that as a good thing.
 
I bought just over 7kg of 1980's lead for £60 at the weekend, so the bargains are still there to be had, but they are becoming harder and harder to find on ebay.
 
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