Hobgoblins!

Discuss.


What is your ideal in a Hobgoblin? Do you favour large hats, curvy swords, horned helmets, samurai armour.... and why?
 
A great question.

I like them to be recognisably Goblinoid, but radically distinct from other Goblins to justify being a separate race/species. In 4th Edition, they look way too similar to regular Goblins for my liking.

A certain tradition has given them orange rather than green skin, which I approve of (though I'm not sure where this tradition originates -- D&D?), and has also dressed them in something that vaguely resembles the arms and armour of Eastern Asia in the Middle Ages. Again, I'm not sure where this comes from -- D&D again?

As to why I like them depicted this way...I don't really know! I tend to go along with cultural norms when it comes to fantasy tropes/stereotypes and like to see them maintained. Whether that's a good thing or not is open for debate.

My own Hobgoblins are the official "Hobgoblin" miniature from the Waddingtons board game Dark World (sorry for the poor picture):

8df2d60c0a.jpg
 
I haven't owned any Hobgoblin models yet, but I like classic Citadel type with armor inspired by Mongolian warriors:

wd67flyer2-c36hobgoblinsx-01.jpg


I also like the Hobgoblins from Alternative Armies, which seem to be inspired by the classic Citadel models:

oh2_poses_500pix_large.jpg


I don't even really know the Hobgoblin fluff, but I imagine them to be taller and meaner than Goblins - and just as intelligent as humans.

When speaking of greenskin races I actually like to "jump" between different alternate universes, so that I imagine Orcs from the Warhammer universe to be very different from the ones from the Lord of the Rings universe. This means that, to me, there is not one single "right" version of any race, but there could be several different ones, depending on which universe I imagine. (I hope it makes sense :) )
 
Oh, by the way, I don't know why I like those. Maybe just because they are so different from Orcs and Goblins while they have something in common with them at the same time.
 
I picked up some Wargames Factory Orcs a while ago to make a Hobgoblin warband. I reckon they capture that Mongolian/LOTR Orc kinda vibe. What do you think?

ml-1.jpg

(Note- not my picture, used without permission. Nice painting though!)
 

Zhu Bajie

Baron
Fimm McCool":37smhq2l said:
I picked up some Wargames Factory Orcs a while ago to make a Hobgoblin warband. I reckon they capture that Mongolian/LOTR Orc kinda vibe. What do you think?

They're based on Angus McBrides Orcs from MERP.

angus008.gif


Wonder if they're paying him for use as concept art?

LilBroGrendel":37smhq2l said:
I haven't owned any Hobgoblin models yet, but I like classic Citadel type with armor inspired by Mongolian warriors.

Me too. Really characterful sculpts. Like the mix of eastern and 'chaos-runt's.

with the Otherworld guys as elites:

Hobgobgrouppaint1.jpg
 
Zhu Bajie":3bu3cu5a said:
They're based on Angus McBrides Orcs from MERP.

That explains why they look LotR-ish to me! I'd never made that comparison for some reason. I still think Angus' orcs have what I'd call a Hobgoblin vibe.

I think these guys do too:
latest
 
I do think that the Wargames Factory Orcs look nice, but if I were to use them it would be as Black Orcs (or even Uruk Hai, but that would be in a LOTR context).

I loooove the Goblins from "The Labyrint" and I have actually thought about converting/sculpting a unit inspired by them :) Maybe I'll get the time for that project this spring.
 

Gallivantes

Vassal
The hobgoblin image I favour is definitely Eastern inspired, probably more mongolian looking than samurai but at the end of the day it's a starting point and not a rigid template. It's fantasy after all, and I think fantastical designs make a good impact when they have a strong foundation in real world reference but won't necessarily limit themselves to it.

Personally I've never considered the mentality of them much as I've never done any gaming or reading that involved the hobgoblin mind and/or society. I did a quick bit of research to see how they're often portrayed and the popular depiction appears to be that they are "a lot like orcs, but more organised and tactical in their warfare". I'm all for that as the visual cues are very much saying "nomadic marauding threat from the east, hide your wives and cattle". Warlike, like ordinary greenskins, but with a twist.

I also imagine that organisational bias to be more of a battlefield tactics kind of thing more than kit uniformity or manufacture/distribution of whatever wargear they own. I can't quite picture an organised large scale manufacturing anything with goblins behind it as well as I can picture things made more individually. Plunder is probably a common source of loot, if not even the only one.

This would make a hobgoblin force look as ragged and mixed as any ordinary goblin/orc force, only mainly drawn from oriental sources.

To boil it down to specifics then; the scale and lamellar types of armour set them apart from the more eurocentric orcs of plate and maille. Scimitars and other curved blades fit them for the same reason, recurve bows do too. Shields are primarily round and sport some funkily crafted designs, top knots and fur trims add to the image and the more orange skin tone reinforces the idea of a distant goblin relative. Lastly, but not leastly, I think any self respecting orc/goblin kin says 'sod footwear' and goes campaigning barefoot. At least a lot of them do, footwear optional as per the loose dress code.

To reiterate the first point though, let historical reference be a good backbone but a fantasy design is something more than just a carbon copy, that's my view. The first thing that comes to mind when I think of orc/goblin kind is wicked looking blades, pointed and hooked like no historical counterpart. I've always been a fan of that. I suppose it implies the malicious and cruel mindset you'd attribute to orcs or goblins. I don't see hobgoblins as an exception. In effect the blade, for example, could have no eastern association at all and that's fine as long as the rest of the hobgoblin does. The same goes for any other detail; that's what makes a good fantasy hobgoblin to me rather than a hobgoblin in plain historically accurate gear.

And to be clear I don't have anything against historical depictions whatsoever. On the contrary, good fantasy draws heavily from it in my opinion and I greatly enjoy historical documentaries and whatnots from a visual standpoint as much as any other angle. So if you're a historical wargamer I didn't just knock that, I'm just saying that to me there's an important distinction between the two. I place hobgoblins in the fantasy bracket* and good fantasy to me has always happily sacrificed a bit of realism to gain a bit of flair. That's what makes it such fun escapism.

Anatomically I see them being on par with human size/weight, but with decidedly poorer postures :) I like the idea of size being more of a variable thing than in humans, the idea that power and physical stature is somehow interlinked in goblinoid races. The visual effect is of a breed more chaotic and monstrous than humans, not less so. The facial setup would be goblin/orc like but not as acute - more human - this would be the visual tiein to the idea of a breed that isn't as devoted to anarchy as other orcs/goblins. I would associate them with an overbite more than an underbite. A similar, yet still different kind of goblin/orc.

Here's a hobgoblin I appreciate:
mA6a4ABe5eh87XWWeiNGZOg.jpg


That turned out to be a bit more of an essay than I intended. I can find it very satisfying to take a thing that interests me and break it down to sort of gauge my own understanding of something. In this case, a design exercise. "What's a good hobgoblin?" was such a great question to me.

*If you don't put hobgoblins in the fantasy bracket I urgently recommend you see a specialist
 
Great replies guys. Galivantes, that Hobgoblin is the one I was thinking of using as my base reference for scale and style, so good to have it affirmed.

I find historical influences work best for fantasy when you combine two different cultures, or take a culture out of context. For instance in this case I am tempted to make my Hobgoblins largely eastern influenced, but with a dose of European medieval and Scandinavian. That gives them a unique flavour and stops them being simply goblins dressed in oriental attire. Not going for uniformity as the guys who make their armour (the Kobolds) are artisans and take pride in creating beautiful, one-off items, not that the Hobgoblins themselves appreciate beauty.
 

Gallivantes

Vassal
Fimm, I think you make a great point saying combining cultures can work as a powerful formula. I realised I already knew of such cases in works I appreciate, but had never really appreciated fully what a hard and fast rule it can be as a tool to wield.

What came to mind first was R E Howards picts from the conan stories that seem a blend between celtic britons and native north american Indians.
BuscemaConan-SSoC27BeyondtheBlackRiver2.jpg~original


The second was the blend of scandinavian, slavic and celtic of the Trudvang setting of the Swedish rpg Drakar och Demoner ("Dragons and Demons")
ta_midlanders.jpg


The third case is perhaps less literal in terms of picking a couple of specific cultures, but I think the similar idea of mixing and matching is present in the good old chaos warriors of Citadel 80's. Nowadays it seems the only fit helmet for a Chaos follower is a horned barbute. It's certainly a cool helmet but it's been over used in that context and it's hardly chaotic to see 20 of them in one unit. I think the better take on the chaos warriors was when you'd see the barbutes mingle with kettle hats, morions, sallets and great helms (and many more) and the armour kits were blends of plate, partial plate, splint, scale and chain maille
Gorthon%2BGoremange,%2BChampion%2Bof%2BChaos.jpg


In any case, looking forward to see your take on the hobgoblins!
 
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