Childish Idiots? Idiot children? state of Industry?

[ManicMan]

Couldn't think of a decent title ^_^

I was looking on the one site the other day at the miniatures they sell for use in a miniatures game they sell (though can be used in other stuff of course).. And I hit by one bit 'disclaimer' "These are not Toys".. Not a 'not intended for under 14 due to small parts' or anything but just a simple 'These are not toys".. and all I could think is, "Of course they are bloody toys!"

You 'play' with them in 'games'.. what is NOT a toy in your mind?

After a while of just being.. well, feeling a bit insulted really, I started to think about this...

For years, 'Toy soldiers' were just that.. a Toy. In the 50s to the early 70s, adults would often play with them in war games and it was a thing, a bit scattered and didn't have much in the way of 'rule sets' we know these days but still playing with miniature toy soldiers, playing 'mock' battles between forces on decorated boards. There was a great Morecambe and Wise sketch in there earlier 'Two of a Kind' show where Eric Morecambe had the two forces built up for a battle, he had a fancy board with trees (which were real trees, but you have to keep hitting them with a hammer when they grow till they learn not to grow up too big) and he and Ernie Wise then played a battle which mostly had Ernie destroying the place (they often swapped who was the 'clown' and who was the 'straight man' for some time, but Eric Morecambe came more and more to be the clown all the time)..

Then there was Callan with Edward Woodward, where his character was often seen collecting, painting and even playing games with this soldiers (and once going to a convention. He preferred Napoleonic era (bare in mind, the show ran 1967 to 1972 with a film remake in 1974.. some time before alot of people class the 'creation' of miniature gaming rules and stuff.. something which always annoys me cause it was a thing, just probebly not as BIG, long before Games Workshop and DnD were even a pipe dream).

anyway.. then coming into the 80s.. we seam to get a period where it starts to get very much looked down on.. I think DnD did alot of create a 'negative view' of gamers and stuff.. not so much the early 80s but by the mid 80s, yes.. very much seen as a 'kiddie' thing.. and alot of people started to feel they 'grew up' from playing the games in the 90s and it was very much a kids game.. coming into late 90s and to the mid 2000s, it starts to be more 'this is for grown ups, we don't want to get mixed up with your kiddie rubbish and there was alot of stuff trying to be 'more grown up'. Which if you look at alot of stuff, appears to be 'add swearing and tits and it's now for grown ups'.. ehuh.. SO alot of things tried to distance themselves from the 'kid' side of things.. "these aren't toy soldiers, this are miniature sculptures for collecting and re-creational fiction fantasy world combat. Nothing like your 10 a penny plastic toy soldiers!"

Then we get to a point where things go back a bit and it's now more 'acceptable' for adults to be into stuff aimed at children, though there are still some which like to try to pretend things are 'more grown up'. We see remakes of older 'all age' stuff with.. well.. swearing and tits so they can claim to be 'adult'. Though things do appear to be started to level out again as more and more of these 'more grown up' versions are dying out, but still looks like it won't be as much a change as in the past..

So we appear to be in a time where alot of companies and 'groups' don't appear to know if they want to be all 'we are grown up, these aren't toys" and others are 'Of course they are toys! just play with them and have fun regardless of your age!".

Personally? I've always been in the 'So what if they are toys' camp. Not really had a period where I felt something was just childish and gave up on.. Some things I moved away from and then came back, but some things have always been there and I've been fine with that.. though at times I see some newer forms and just think "yeah.. this might be okay and fine for modern day target group but I was the target group in the past, and I prefer that past stuff."


well.. So what are peoples views? are they toys? are they not? have I completely mis-read the situation over this brief quick 'history'. I see alot of people on youtube who seam to love saying "Wow, you wouldn't believe these adult jokes in this 90s cartoon" and I think.. erm.. yes.. all age stuff used to be like that, often LONG before the 90s too.. Hell, Harry Corbett did it, Mathew Corbett Carried it on, so that's sooty from 1950s to the end of the 90s (while I disliked Richard Cadells Sooty stuff, I've more come to notice it was not HIM, but some of the changes to appeal to new kids and some ideas which didn't really quite gel with me.. I think he was a pretty okay choice to take over).. despite him taking over doing Sooty kinda lead to well, a sooty TV show on the air for Such a long time, coming to an end and so many years without much or any TV Sooty. I saw some of 'Sooty Heights'.. wasn't that impressed.. the basic idea was sound (though it create a HUGE plot hole) but didn't quite gel with me, and I haven't really seen any of the theme park series from when he co-owned Brean Leisure Park.. since 2018, there hasn't really been any Sooty on tv which is a shame but.. fair enough.. though..

 

[chrisgoodone]

I think there's a lot of risk adverse stuff led by legal eagles and non creative/courageous people where we are at the arse-end of capitalism.
I think they ARE toys. But I also think they are game pieces. And more and more nowadays they are collectables, art and antiques...
But thanks for posting thinky stuff and nostalj. Luvvit

 

[Fimm McCool]

The 'not a toy' disclaimer covers your back when you're making stuff out of lead as there's legislation to ensure toys aren't made of poisonous metals. Of course it's something you play with, and we'd call them you soldiers amongst one another, but selling them as toys is asking for trouble.

 

[KingOfTheLeadPile]

I think there is not the one answer, it is a point of view. I also would say they are not toys. When I think of a toy, it is something that you take out of the package it comes in, you play with it immediately, don't need to be especially careful, they can be thrown around and taken to the sand box.
Which is in no way related to your train of thought.
I would consider minis more as models (like scale models), you need to finish them, put effort in them, and then take much more care of them while playing than with a toy. Also, you don't take toys to competitions, boast about them, etc. Because you just bought them, put did not pour any efforts into them.

 

[ManicMan]

I think there is not the one answer, it is a point of view. I also would say they are not toys. When I think of a toy, it is something that you take out of the package it comes in, you play with it immediately, don't need to be especially careful, they can be thrown around and taken to the sand box.
Which is in no way related to your train of thought.
I would consider minis more as models (like scale models), you need to finish them, put effort in them, and then take much more care of them while playing than with a toy. Also, you don't take toys to competitions, boast about them, etc. Because you just bought them, put did not pour any efforts into them.

fair enough, though... erm.. Do they not make construction toys much these days? Like Lego and Meccano which were labeled as toys and had competitions, and stuff.. also.. mm.. not going as far as model kits (even ones listed as Toys with motors and stuff), maybe only the UK and Japan had 'toys' which require work with competitions and stuff.. mm..

but fair enough, I want different views to get a good idea ^_^ people can't correctly judge things without hearing a wide range of views and ideas. Like they say, you can't think like something you are not. You can pretend but it's never 'correct'.

The 'not a toy' disclaimer covers your back when you're making stuff out of lead as there's legislation to ensure toys aren't made of poisonous metals. Of course it's something you play with, and we'd call them you soldiers amongst one another, but selling them as toys is asking for trouble.

I can imagine that.. but.. mm.. is there such a legislation to say you can't call it a toy unless it's a certain range? wonder how some mechanical toys and.. some more adult toys can call themselves 'toys' clearly and fully, just with an age and material disclaimer.. I better see if I can go through some UK law summaries.. knowing the whole biscuit/cake legal issues and tax issues etc.. I can imagine it..

OH.. just checked and.. ehuh.. under UK law a toy is any product or material designed or clearly intended for use in play by children of less than 14 years of age" but doesn't include 'fashion jewellery' or Christmas decorations etc.. that's.. weird.. so basically.. a Colouring book is a toy and any toy with a 14+ age disclaimer.. isn't a toy.. even if they say it is.. like some action figures.. .. I think this is one of a number of reasons I'm not a lawyer..

 

[Citizen Sade]

The 'not a toy' disclaimer covers your back when you're making stuff out of lead as there's legislation to ensure toys aren't made of poisonous metals.

This. Understandably, there are stringent regulations about toys for safety reasons. I understand that there can also be tariff implications.

FWIW, if I’m filling in a customs form, I describe man dollies as model soldiers these days. This was recommended to me by a chap who used to import a lot of them.

 

[Padre]

My miniatures' journey definitely started with toys. Airfix, 1:32nd scale (54mm). From cowboys to WW2, from spacemen to medievals, from Napoleonics to conversions made to be 007 villain's lair guards or post-apocalypse warriors. I can't remember the mid 70s in detail, but we (my younger bro, the neighbour kids) seem at first to have fought our battles and wars without rules. We did paint them though, using enamels and white spirit. (Parents did not think this odd or dangerous - and later mum allowed us to melt lead to make Prince August models from moulds) I recall painting toy soldiers so young that my two-years younger brother simply blotched random paint colours on them!

We only moved on to 1:72nd scale (20mm) when we wanted to play what we called 'Sci Fi' - massive street encompassing wars with garden kingdoms with converted Airfix tanks and planes and spaceships etc etc. I had a space station which was polystyrene packaging for some electrical thing which I was very proud of. I could cram its compartments with soldiers, tanks, planes, missiles etc and fly it to other gardens to begin invasions or peacekeeping or to assist allies. I WISH I could see us playing those games now and how the heck we resolved our wars without wargame rules.

Sometimes circa 1980 I got a hold of Traveller (no idea how I stumbled upon it - probably in toy soldier shops, of which there was a good one in the Merrion Centre in Leeds) - which I used to run RP Traveller for all my friends and nieghbours. I then realised I could convert the combat rules into wargames' rules for anything, which I did. All the stuff I mentioned above (even 54mm plastic Napoleonics in ranks and files) got rules with measures and dice, and we all fought on. The painting got my involved, intricate, the conversions went crazy (anti-anti-missile missiles on the backs of our missiles so that they could destroy anti-missile missiles launched at our missiles). Nuclear proliferation was a thing, and many a garden realm was destroyed on a weekly basis. Then the wasteland it has presumed to have become was then fought over by protection-suited soldiers. Star Wars, Mad Max, 2000AD's Strontium Dogs, WW2 films by the dozen, etc, inspired our collections, modelling and painting.

Then in 1983 Warhammer the Mass Combat Fantasy Roleplaying Game appeared and we dived in wholeheartedly. 25 - 28mm came to rule, RP and WG, and I have been there ever since - clubs, University, Student Nationals. I drifted into more cerebral RP (no figures) but always came back to figures in the end (Star Wars @15mm and Warhammer mostly).

And I have always called what I do "playing with toy soldiers".

 

[Fimm McCool]

FWIW, if I’m filling in a customs form, I describe man dollies as model soldiers these days. This was recommended to me by a chap who used to import a lot of them.

I use 'Metal Gaming Miniatures', some authorities require material information these days. Code 9503003000- reduced-scale models.

 

[Citizen Sade]

Interesting. I was advised to use TARIC code 9503009990 and describe them as model soldiers. It was a few years ago. Never had any problems.

 

[Fimm McCool]

I'm sure there are several possibilities. It's a very vague and weirdly specific-in-parts list of codes! 3003000 seems to be subset of 3009990.

 

[ManicMan]

I know customs and stuff needs to be pretty advanced due to the wide range of stuff but.. Sometimes I think this is all part of a jobs for the boyes plot.. "Oh, my mate needs a job. Maybe we can make up a bunch of admin roles for him?".. not that I'm moaning at admin roles..

 

[Eric]

Customs codes are a very organised total mess ... the section generally seems to be Chapter 95, Section 3 which is the Toys, tricycles, dolls, and puzzles section - fascinating read. I forget what I used for the last minis I sent - some kind of toy or model kit I think.

 

[Orjetax]

Ooo your question whether these models are toys raises the interesting question- “what’s the difference between games and play?”

I say play involves more improvisation and looser structure. And games are more rule-bound.

I use mine in “games” but not in “play.”

For me, they’re game pieces and delightfully off-kilter art objects.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[jon_1066]

Toys and Games is a phrase. If all games were toys then there would be no need for the phrase. The UK snooker championship has just been. Snooker is clearly a game but no one describes it as playing with toys.

Toys are for children, games for anyone. If you are selling toys they need to be safe for children. By default plastic glue, enamel paint and figures containing lead are not suitable for children to be left with unsupervised in the same way a set of darts is not a toy.

There are lots of rules and disclaimers you need to follow. Hence the whole "not suitable for children under 3 due to small parts" you see on the packaging of many toys.

 

[MichaelStockin]

Back when I sold miniatures and the like, anything classed as a toy needed a CE mark to prove it was safe for children of a certain age.
None of my models had CE marks and as such could not be classed as toys for the purpose of selling into the EU.
As such I stated my models were not toys and not suitable for children and as such I did not need to get them a CE mark.

 

[ManicMan]

In the UK now,, the CE Mark is meaningless ^_^ It has to be UKCA marked (well.. I say now.. as from 11pm on the 31st December this year. But they are a bit.. interesting in that it doesn't have to be on the object itself, but can be on the packaging or documentation with it.

 

[AranaszarSzuur]

Ooo your question whether these models are toys raises the interesting question- “what’s the difference between games and play?”

I say play involves more improvisation and looser structure. And games are more rule-bound.

Oldhammer would be in-between game and play, then.

 

[symphonicpoet]

^Probably depends on how you hammer. It could go either way. Tournaments started popping up even before 2nd edition, as I recall. Maybe around 1990 or so. That'd be more game. But I preferred the faster and looser fun game with some story elements. (Like having the ork dreadnought throw da boyz across bottomless pits because some cheeky beaky blew up the only bridge. I think we required you to survive an automatic S3 or S4 hit on landing, and if Mr. Dreadly missed the scatter dice had a high chance of depositing you in the chasm.) That's probably straight-up play, even if we did technically use RT rules. (With some minor additions to account for the oddities of the scenario.)

 

[AranaszarSzuur]

^Probably depends on how you hammer. It could go either way. Tournaments started popping up even before 2nd edition, as I recall. Maybe around 1990 or so. That'd be more game.

I recently started viewing Oldhammer 40k more as the version of Rogue Trader that flopped. Like AFAIK the term Oldhammer comes from Zhu and his The Oldhammer Contract and it's pretty much inspired by D&D OSR which was pretty much contemporary to it.
It's not just about old miniatures but about the old way of playing Warhammer. So, essentially mixing game with play and rejecting tournament play, preferably having a DM too.
Most players have very quickly adopted tournament play mentality and the army lists in Book of Astronomician and in WD were already a big shift towards it. Like GW Oldhammer was pretty much mainly The Beginning era and The First Expansion era with Rogue Trader rapidly becoming Newhammer. With remnants probably playing with Realm of Chaos books.
Like, it's the tournament play which is Newhammer.

The Wolf Time scenario in Book of Astronomican was written for Rogue Trader rulebook but they ran out of space in it, just like with the original space combat rules.

Playing even with modern miniatures the old way is Oldhammer.

Interestingly, it means that there also was official Oldhammer revival by GW in early 2000s which was Inquisitor which according to Gav Thorpe was directly inspired by Rogue Trader. Which also means that Inq28 is Oldhammer.