Basing - where am I going wrong?

[theottovonbismark]

I use that snow flock stuff instead of sand but paint it like sand. I get best results from super glue as the sticking medium but you have to be super-careful with it not to get it on the feet of the model, usually cocktail sticks do the job. It is not as hard a material as sand and so can be filed or scraped off with ease and keeps a great texture for drybrushing.

 

[Jeff McC]

I use carpenter's wood glue rather than PVA - similar, but a bit stronger hold.

 

[Naagruz]

CA+

I have no idea what this is.

Thicker Cyanoacrylate = super glue+, Zap-a-gap. As opposed to CA, CA++ or CA-. It just refers to the viscosity & drying speed of the glue. CA-, for example dries so fast it causes wood to smoke.
I hope that helps.

 

[Whitesun]

I find a pretty strong, if messy way, is to create the basing goop first.
You're going about it very delicately, by PVA first then dip then shake...

Essentially, to create the basing goop, have a tub with watered down PVA, pour some sand and bits in and stir till you get a somewhat sticky/slimy consistency.

Apply said good to base of mini and undercoat (letting the goop dry first is normally recommended).

The dried goop and undercoat is generally quite durable in my experience, and quite a bit faster since you can batch base once you get the goop right..

 

[Asslessman]

I use carpenter's wood glue rather than PVA - similar, but a bit stronger hold.

Same here, I bought a big pot for almost nothing in francs (that's even less in euros and even even less in GBP) and 15 years or so after, it still works and has never left me down. Only thing is you have to let it properly let it dry and it must have a prime layer before receiving anything since it can be sensitive to water.

 

[Protist]

WHSmith's cheapo acrylic paint, thinned a little, paint -> sand -> more paint. Rubbish as paint, but great pigmented basing glue!

PVA is not so good 'coz its water soluble even after its dry. Superglue works, but its expensive. For heavy, thickly textured stuff (like bigger stones/large bases etc) I use 5 minute epoxy

Still, can't beat the clean + key advice with any gluing/painting. Sometimes I'll key the flat edges of the base with some fine wire wool too - mostly only large bases though.

 

[theottovonbismark]

I find a pretty strong, if messy way, is to create the basing goop first.
You're going about it very delicately, by PVA first then dip then shake...

Essentially, to create the basing goop, have a tub with watered down PVA, pour some sand and bits in and stir till you get a somewhat sticky/slimy consistency.

Apply said good to base of mini and undercoat (letting the goop dry first is normally recommended).

The dried goop and undercoat is generally quite durable in my experience, and quite a bit faster since you can batch base once you get the goop right..

This is a good approach I think.

 

[Chico]

When I worked in GW Watford someone showed me that using Plastic Glue then covering in sand works wonders as the base melts slighty and the sand sinks and holds tight. But I much prefer this super glue:

It's cheap (4 for £1) and very strong.. bit like me then hehe

 

[phreedh]

Once the sand & PVA has dried you can coat the base in very watered down PVA again, this helps to seal it all in place.

Listen to John, he's got it right. =)

Also, it might be a problem with the first layer of PVA. It should be fairly thick and not too diluted. The whole base should be properly wet when you dip it. After carefully applying the first layer of glue, I do another round with some more water in it just to moisten things up before dipping the base in sand. I leave that to dry over-night and then wash with a very watered down pva with a bit of dark paint in it. It's important that it's so diluted that it "soaks" into the sand layer. Once that is dry, I paint the base my dark base colour and proceed with overbrushing and drybrushing the next two layers.

 

[zoggin-eck]

As others have already said, I've never had an issue with PVA. I simply hit it with black ink afterwards. The dry sand will soak it up, holding it all together. I'll then just undercoat it along with the model.

I'd never dream of using sand again, though, since I started using Coat d'arms "Brushscape". Of all the textured paints I've used, this is the closest to fine sand (and more convenient).

http://www.blackhat.co.uk/coat_darms/brushscape.php

 

[Scalene]

I think the problem is probably some combination of cheap PVA and not leaving it long enough. I use Evo-stik waterproof PVA and leave it 24 hours. By this point the sand is rock solid and needs no further treatment to stop it lifting.

 

[Coopdevil]

In my experience you always need to thin the PVA - straight out of the bottle it's too thick for capillary action to work. Thinned, it flows into the gaps nicely and around the individual grains, and holds the sand much better.

If the sand starts shedding I mix 75/25 water to PVA and touch it to the surface with a big brush (you can see where it's gone as the sand darkens) then leave it on the radiator over night. Dries like glasspaper.

These days I mix 50/50 PVA to any acrylic paint and use that itself. Dries much, much faster and seems to dry harder too. I guess this is because you are mixing glue with glue (acrylic paint being water-soluabe tinted glue). Was shown this by a mate working in a local GW who was staggered that I'd never seen this technique before!

Coop

 

[Skarsnik]

Once the sand & PVA has dried you can coat the base in very watered down PVA again, this helps to seal it all in place.

^What he said. Also, for the 1st layer of pva (before dipping in the sand), put a single drop of washing up liquid into the mix, it breaks the surface tension of the glue (apparently), and seems to help with the spreading around process before dipping it in the sand, thus giving you a good even layer of sand.

 

[Skyrak]

You need to delete my post as well as I quoted the spam to highlight it

 

[Mahwell skel]

When I worked in GW Watford someone showed me that using Plastic Glue then covering in sand works wonders as the base melts slighty and the sand sinks and holds tight.

I don't recommend that as it later warps the base in my experience.

The PVA sand and when dried another watered PVA is the route to go.

 

[Citadel Collector]

You need to delete my post as well as I quoted the spam to highlight it

Done

 

[Asslessman]

When I worked in GW Watford someone showed me that using Plastic Glue then covering in sand works wonders as the base melts slighty and the sand sinks and holds tight.

I don't recommend that as it later warps the base in my experience.

The PVA sand and when dried another watered PVA is the route to go.

Same here, I used the plastic glue trick when I started but quickly stopped and opted for a good wood glue thinned down a little with water, sand on top and then the prime come to seal it (the varnish helps a bt too at the end) and I've neevr had any problem that way in more than 20 years.

 

[Jimmytrout]

Once the sand & PVA has dried you can coat the base in very watered down PVA again, this helps to seal it all in place.

Listen to John, he's got it right. =)

Also, it might be a problem with the first layer of PVA. It should be fairly thick and not too diluted. The whole base should be properly wet when you dip it. After carefully applying the first layer of glue, I do another round with some more water in it just to moisten things up before dipping the base in sand. I leave that to dry over-night and then wash with a very watered down pva with a bit of dark paint in it. It's important that it's so diluted that it "soaks" into the sand layer. Once that is dry, I paint the base my dark base colour and proceed with overbrushing and drybrushing the next two layers.

This is exactly what I do. A thick layer of wood glue to start with, then a dip in the sand. Once that has dried well, I go over it with a watered-down layer of glue. If, like phreedh, you add paint to that layer, you're effectively combining two steps into one. Once you put down that second layer of glue, the sand will be stuck for good.

Good luck!

Jeff

 

[Mr Saturday]

I had this exact same problem when I was basing my undead. You might be using too much PVA. PVA shrinks as it dries, and as it does so, if there's a high ratio of PVA to sand it'll pull away from the base. I found a consistency like thick porridge is about right. I never mix water in. Also, using a few different grades of sand helps break up the surface and make it look more realistic. I also found sawdust mixed in worked a bleedin' charm. I guess it soaks in some of the PVA, but I've never had a base lift where I used the sawdust/flock.

I put together a wee tutorial on it here: http://mrsaturdaysmumblings.blogspot.ie/2011/03/mr-saturdays-porridge-making-decent.html

 

[Leadpest]

Try this:

1/ Undercoat mini including base
2/ Paint mini
3/ Apply 1 part water/2 part PVA mix to base (doesn't matter what type of PVA - I have used whatever I can get my hands on in the past and it all worked fine)
4/ Apply sand and leave to dry for 24hrs
5/ Mix your desired base colour with water to achieve a milky consistency; much like a wash.
6/ Apply your chosen base colour as you would a general wash but allowing capillary action to pull the wash from your brush onto the base. Try two or three thin coats leaving each layer to dry before applying the next. By letting the wash flow into the sanded areas of the base you avoid pulling the sand up as would happen by simply painting it in the traditional manner.