40K: Satire or not Satire

[Stormbringer]

I've been reflecting on Zhu's latest post, and in light of it I think I'll retract my opinion that "40K is satire" (by technical definition).

Instead, I'll say: "40K is a dark, dystopian techno-fantasy setting riddled with parodies and satirical jokes, which have been mostly eroded over the years, and is now (generally speaking) taken more seriously by players than it was at its inception."

 

[AranaszarSzuur]

Wh40k started out pretty much as a weak satire for adults, with some artists not getting the memo and taking it entirely seriously and quickly turned into fascist propaganda for kids.

Yeah right. Please save all of the SJW crap for Fecesbook, thank you.

No.

 

[Late]

I am being entirely serious, nobody wants to hear about the delusional worldview of someone born in the late 1990's. You should save it for university parties, might get you laid with some problem glasses girl.

 

[Fimm McCool]

I am being entirely serious, nobody wants to hear about the delusional worldview of someone born in the late 1990's. You should save it for university parties, might get you laid with some problem glasses girl.

Well, that escalated quickly.

 

[AranaszarSzuur]

I am being entirely serious, nobody wants to hear about the delusional worldview of someone born in the late 1990's. You should save it for university parties, might get you laid with some problem glasses girl.

The only one acting like a SJW here is you. You probably have spent too much time in GamerGate which gave you a Twitter PTSD and now you get triggered every time you see anything reminds you of it.

 

[Golgfag1]

OK folks,

I'll be nice, and say this in words of no more than two syllables - Play nice or else. I don't want to see any more reports about poor behavior, understood?

Paul/Golgfag1

 

[Zhu Bajie]

BatF was a freak occurrence because the Crimson Fists fortress monastery was destroyed by a malfunctioning anti-ship missile hitting ammo stores.

You say this as if it makes the Space Marines less like bumbling idiots.

Your point about Logans World and the Troubles is well taken - of course if we read Space Marines in this context as the Imperialist British - and the punks as Irish. I'm not sure we see much else to confirm this as intentional, the bus-gangs, Mad Max, the slavers and fetish girls don't seem to reflect on the Troubles at all, the punks are not notably nationalist - there is no Hellsreach Republican Army - it lacks pointedness.

Perhaps at this point it's better to see Empire is being portrayed as a dark mirror for the idea of Imperialism, the Life of Bryan reference (see what I did there) - specifically the soldier stopping a youth in the middle of an act of protest graffiti - echoes Imperial Rome vs the freedom fighters of Judea. Sure the empire might be bringing Law and Order, but on Logans World we don't see them tackling the slave gangs, we don't see them battling the Orcs in the badlands, we see them giving punks a hard time. Its really the same, our sympathy is with the oppressed - we don't see the Space Marines as saviours of humanity, but its oppressor.

Personally I do not have a problem with the ambiguity.

I think it's only a problem if the ambiguity undermines the intent. Judge Dredd / 2000AD are often brought up as examples of dystopian satire - but they are arguably much clearer (and funnier) than 40k in signalling that satirical intent. The thing is the agenda is there anyway.

 

[AranaszarSzuur]

BatF was a freak occurrence because the Crimson Fists fortress monastery was destroyed by a malfunctioning anti-ship missile hitting ammo stores.

You say this as if it makes the Space Marines less like bumbling idiots.

Well, they are way too self-confident and negligent in preparation, possibly undisciplined like stereotypical medieval knights.
Doesn't make them any less fearsome opponents as individual fighters.

I think it was shown quite interestingly in Ian Watson's Space Marine.

Your point about Logans World and the Troubles is well taken - of course if we read Space Marines in this context as the Imperialist British - and the punks as Irish. I'm not sure we see much else to confirm this as intentional, the bus-gangs, Mad Max, the slavers and fetish girls don't seem to reflect on the Troubles at all, the punks are not notably nationalist - there is no Hellsreach Republican Army - it lacks pointedness.

These aren't punks. Look at the Helsreach faction list. Punks aren't huge guys with mohawks. Bandits and mercenaries are. The guys Marines harass and fight against are an equivalent of Necromunda's gangers. Huge, tough, armed and dangerous.
Helsreach punks are weak guys with clubs and FABULOUS hair.

Helsreach setting is in a way, a prototype of Necromunda.

There's no Hellsreach Republican Army, but there are local power structures - gangs, bandits, slavers, etc. that don't like the presence of Imperial authority.

I don't mean that Hellsreach is Ireland. I mean that Ireland was basically the most familiar imagery of occupation and resistance to the authors.

Perhaps at this point it's better to see Empire is being portrayed as a dark mirror for the idea of Imperialism, the Life of Bryan reference (see what I did there) - specifically the soldier stopping a youth in the middle of an act of protest graffiti - echoes Imperial Rome vs the freedom fighters of Judea. Sure the empire might be bringing Law and Order, but on Logans World we don't see them tackling the slave gangs, we don't see them battling the Orcs in the badlands, we see them giving punks a hard time. Its really the same, our sympathy is with the oppressed - we don't see the Space Marines as saviours of humanity, but its oppressor.

There is nothing that indicates that it's a reference to Life of Bryan.
You're often making loose associations without carefully examining source material ^^ .

Life of Brian:
-Bryan is just ordinary dude.
-The graffiti says "Romans Go Home" with gramatical error.
-The graffiti is finished when he's caught.
-The Roman officer who caught him teaches him spelling and makes him write it 100 times.

Rogue Trader illustration:
-Arrested dude is a huge muscular bandit/mercenary with a handgun.
-The graffiti says "Marines Ou".
-The graffiti is unfinished.
-It's a straightforward arrest scene.

There's an obvious parallel between "Brits Out" and "Marines Out" and large threatening men in balaclavas and huge muscular dude with a mohawk.

It suggests that former powers that be of Hellsreach are resisting Imperial occupation using terrorist tactics. We can imagine shots from behind corners, car bombs going off, grenade/rocket launcher attacks, perhaps Space Marines/loyalist forces organizing massacres of separatists, separatists massacring loyalists, etc.

Personally I do not have a problem with the ambiguity.

I think it's only a problem if the ambiguity undermines the intent. Judge Dredd / 2000AD are often brought up as examples of dystopian satire - but they are arguably much clearer (and funnier) than 40k in signalling that satirical intent. The thing is the agenda is there anyway.

Judge Dredd was still too ambiguous for many .

 

[Zhu Bajie]

Helsreach setting is in a way, a prototype of Necromunda.

I think that a big part of why people misunderstand Rogue Trader is reading in later developments, or looking at it as an embryonic form of what came later rather than looking at it for what it actually is. Helsreach is as Rogue Trader as it gets.

There is nothing that indicates that it's a reference to Life of Bryan.

You’re joking right? But just in case you’re being sincere, I’ll try to explain some of the basics here

Firstly, gamers are famous for their constant quoting of Monty Python, it’s a massive part of the subculture, like Red Dwarf or Hitchhikers. Life of Brian is rightfully recognised as one of the top 10 Comedy Films of all time, as famous for it’s silly songs (which reached #3 in the pop charts, and was sung at the 2012 London olympics) as it is for it’s controversial satire at the time. It also has alien spaceships in it. “Romani ite domum” is one of the most famous scenes in British comedy, it even has it’s own Wikipedia page it’s hugely improbable that Carl Critchlow wasn’t aware of this scene, or that the audience (nerdy students in 1987) wouldn’t have received a scene of a solider non-violently arresting a graffiti writer it in that context.

Critchlow is probably best known for his creation Thrud the Barbarian - this is a comedic cartoon strip, largely an over muscled, dim-witted parody of Conan the Barbarian, published in White Dwarf magazine throughout the 1980s and often noted for its ‘Pythonesque’ humour, you can see his take on 40k here:

Now I’m not saying Logans World is on the same level, but just showing that Carls work in the 80s is not generally deadly serious stuff of grim seriousness, there’s a significant undercurrent of humour running throughout. In Logans World we can see the mercenary relaxing having a fag next to a wanted poster with his face on it, the Squat in a Batman t-shirt, Acid House / Comedian smileys doing sad faces, clones of Mad Max, boufaunted street kids, etc. etc. It is full of pop-culture references. It’s a real shame if people are missing out on the humorous quality of the work, but the pop-culture melange also underlines an slightly daft (I mean. Batman is still a thing in 40,000 years time, mkay?), tongue-in-cheek attitude that someone who doesn’t share the same cultural background might be missing out on because they’re just not getting all the references.

Finally, Carl in an interview stated “I did enjoy the Python films at the time I created Thrud and when the original strip was running in White Dwarf”. At least one of the Thrud strips (#50) - has almost exactly the same gag as a scene in Monty Python and the Holy Grail - so we have both textual evidence and testimony so we can be reasonably certain that Carl is influenced by the Pythons.

So that’s just some of the general background.

But what about this particular image?

Consider the infinite images Carl could have drawn to express the Imperials bringing lost worlds to brutal order, he chooses one where a Soldier arrests a young man doing graffiti, - a scene we find specifically in The Life of Brian:

Life of Brian / Helsreach:

+ Soldier: heavily armoured elite troop.
+ Soldier: acting in a law enforcement capacity
+ Soldier: representing occupying forces.
+ Writer: caught in the act at scene of crime
+ Writer: young, male - atavistic of viewer.
+ Writer: representing rebellion against imperial forces
+ Composition: soldier on left, writer on right.
+ Slogan: Romans Go Home / Marines Out expresses the same sentiment.
+ Scene: Solider arresting graffiti writer.
+ Joke: elite forces clamping down on petty crime.

The reference is clear and obvious and of course it’s transformative and not a direct copy, but there’s enough context and similarity.

There's an obvious parallel between "Brits Out" and "Marines Out" and large threatening men in balaclavas and huge muscular dude with a mohawk.

"XXX Out" is a commonly seen piece of graffiti, it's not singularly tied to the Troubles in Northern Ireland, although it is used in that context. It’s pretty weak evidence to hang an entire argument on.

However, the detail you’ve completely missed, I don’t know whether its due to unfamiliarity with Northern Ireland or because you didn’t really look at the picture. If you look closely you'll see a slogan that says "Home Rule for Mutants", which I'm going to argue is a direct reference to Northern Ireland, as "Home Rule for Ireland" is a well known slogan, going back to at least the 1800s. However, none of this plays out in the rest of Helsreach, the Punk is not a Mutie etc. etc. it’s not a satire on the Troubles, the Space Marines aren’t cast as Brits, not the Punks as Irish - its use is quite incidental and easily overlooked detail- not the basis of the entire scene.

There’s no “parallel” between a mohawk and a balaclava. A mohawk is an expression of individual identity, while a balaclava hides identity - they're completely different visually and signify completely different meanings. Nobody is looking at a punk with a mohawk his hands against the wall and thinking ‘terrorist’, nor is he ‘threatening’ his pose is that of someone who has ‘assumed the position’ - a submissive posture, ready to be searched, or prodded with whatever implement that Space Marine is fingering, it’s certainly not a Bolt Gun. The punk is not threatening anyone, he’s entirely passive.

The punk references in Helsreach appear across multiple factions, the ‘Street Punks’ - the Hoverbus Gangers have Anarchy signs on their shirts - the Mercenaries have Anarchy signs on their belt buckles and mohawks - they are punks, overtly carrying the signifiers of punk, explicitly not the signifiers of terrorism or freedom fighters or nationalists, but pop-culture influenced anarchists. If Carl had wanted Helsreach Mercs to be a parallel to a strong-armed underground resistance, then he could have designed them that way, but he didn’t, he designed them as anarcho-punks, as indeed the whole of Helsreach is a place where law and order have been long since replaced with lawlessness and anarchism.

It suggests that former powers that be of Hellsreach are resisting Imperial occupation using terrorist tactics. We can imagine shots from behind corners, car bombs going off, grenade/rocket launcher attacks, perhaps Space Marines/loyalist forces organizing massacres of separatists, separatists massacring loyalists, etc.

We can imagine all sorts of things going on behind the scenes, but the actual picture and text suggest nothing of the sort. There is no evidence for car bombs or massacres or anything of that kind - what is there is a gag about the fearsome agents of Law and Order being focused on trivial crime and not really being as fearsome as they make out. Space Marines are just another faction thrown into the melting pot, not the central pivot of the whole thing.

Perhaps if Carl had shown the punk shot in the head dead on the floor, the graffiti unfinished, and a smoking barrel of the Marines non-STC weapon, the spraycan rolling out of the punks hand, maybe some laserburn marks or bullet holes in the wall behind him, it might have suggested some of that, would have made the Marines more monstrous and evil, and less like the petty-minded jobsworths they actually are.

TJudge Dredd was still too ambiguous for many .

They literally put Nigel Farage on the cover and called him a hypocrite then had Dredd arrest him for incitement to riot. Its practically Private Eye level stuff.

 

[AranaszarSzuur]

Helsreach setting is in a way, a prototype of Necromunda.

I think that a big part of why people misunderstand Rogue Trader is reading in later developments, or looking at it as an embryonic form of what came later rather than looking at it for what it actually is. Helsreach is as Rogue Trader as it gets.

Necromunda had dangerous gang factions with punk aesthetics. Helsreach is the same in that aspect.

There is nothing that indicates that it's a reference to Life of Bryan.

You’re joking right? But just in case you’re being sincere, I’ll try to explain some of the basics here

I watched lots of Monty Python movies when I was young. Life of Bryan was a parody of Jesus Christ.

There's an obvious parallel between "Brits Out" and "Marines Out" and large threatening men in balaclavas and huge muscular dude with a mohawk.

"XXX Out" is a commonly seen piece of graffiti, it's not singularly tied to the Troubles in Northern Ireland, although it is used in that context. It’s pretty weak evidence to hang an entire argument on.

However, the detail you’ve completely missed, I don’t know whether its due to unfamiliarity with Northern Ireland or because you didn’t really look at the picture. If you look closely you'll see a slogan that says "Home Rule for Mutants", which I'm going to argue is a direct reference to Northern Ireland, as "Home Rule for Ireland" is a well known slogan, going back to at least the 1800s. However, none of this plays out in the rest of Helsreach, the Punk is not a Mutie etc. etc. it’s not a satire on the Troubles, the Space Marines aren’t cast as Brits, not the Punks as Irish - its use is quite incidental and easily overlooked detail- not the basis of the entire scene.

So, you see that there are multiple direct references to The Troubles.

There’s no “parallel” between a mohawk and a balaclava. A mohawk is an expression of individual identity, while a balaclava hides identity - they're completely different visually and signify completely different meanings. Nobody is looking at a punk with a mohawk his hands against the wall and thinking ‘terrorist’, nor is he ‘threatening’ his pose is that of someone who has ‘assumed the position’ - a submissive posture, ready to be searched, or prodded with whatever implement that Space Marine is fingering, it’s certainly not a Bolt Gun. The punk is not threatening anyone, he’s entirely passive.

The punk references in Helsreach appear across multiple factions, the ‘Street Punks’ - the Hoverbus Gangers have Anarchy signs on their shirts - the Mercenaries have Anarchy signs on their belt buckles and mohawks - they are punks, overtly carrying the signifiers of punk, explicitly not the signifiers of terrorism or freedom fighters or nationalists, but pop-culture influenced anarchists. If Carl had wanted Helsreach Mercs to be a parallel to a strong-armed underground resistance, then he could have designed them that way, but he didn’t, he designed them as anarcho-punks, as indeed the whole of Helsreach is a place where law and order have been long since replaced with lawlessness and anarchism.

I don't know, punks tend to look the same to me. Punk is probably one of the most de-individualizing subcultures out there when it comes to looks.
Punks have pretty much de-individualised paramilitary look, except that trash. Which makes super-muscular armed punks similar to paramilitary in balaclavas. And balaclavas are also a bandit thing and there are bandits in mohawks

They are still bandits and mercenaries. Not just some kids and the one the picture is heavily muscled and armed.

He isn't threatening anyone because he's being approached by two superhuman special forces dudes in high tech power armour.
He is someone who would be threatening if not being arrested.
It's not exactly uncommon for violent homicidal gangers to get arrested by dozens by SWAT. Doesn't make them any less threatening when free.

It suggests that former powers that be of Hellsreach are resisting Imperial occupation using terrorist tactics. We can imagine shots from behind corners, car bombs going off, grenade/rocket launcher attacks, perhaps Space Marines/loyalist forces organizing massacres of separatists, separatists massacring loyalists, etc.

We can imagine all sorts of things going on behind the scenes, but the actual picture and text suggest nothing of the sort. There is no evidence for car bombs or massacres or anything of that kind - what is there is a gag about the fearsome agents of Law and Order being focused on trivial crime and not really being as fearsome as they make out. Space Marines are just another faction thrown into the melting pot, not the central pivot of the whole thing.

Perhaps if Carl had shown the punk shot in the head dead on the floor, the graffiti unfinished, and a smoking barrel of the Marines non-STC weapon, the spraycan rolling out of the punks hand, maybe some laserburn marks or bullet holes in the wall behind him, it might have suggested some of that, would have made the Marines more monstrous and evil, and less like the petty-minded jobsworths they actually are.

I don't think you understand how serious risk it was to challenge imperial authority historically.
Crushing dissent is characteristic for tyranny and the Imperium is supposed to be the bloodiest regime imaginable.
For all we know about the Imperium, the bandit/mercenary is going to end up tortured for info and either executed or put into penal legion. I mean they put people in penal legion for overdue library books and tax mistakes, so there's no reason to assume that they won't do it for challenging imperial authority - though it's more probable that it's a capital crime.

 

[Zhu Bajie]

There’s no “parallel” between a mohawk and a balaclava. A mohawk is an expression of individual identity, while a balaclava hides identity - they're completely different visually and signify completely different meanings. Nobody is looking at a punk with a mohawk his hands against the wall and thinking ‘terrorist’.

I don't know, punks tend to look the same to me. Punk is probably one of the most de-individualizing subcultures out there when it comes to looks. Punks have pretty much de-individualised paramilitary look, except that trash. Which makes super-muscular armed punks similar to paramilitary in balaclavas. And balaclavas are also a bandit thing and there are bandits in mohawks

You've missed the point completely. A balaclava hides your face, makes you less identifiable. A mowhawk makes you more identifiable. Trying to draw a visual parallel between a mohawk and a balaclava is a ridiculous stretch. If anything the Space Marines are wearing helmets that look more like balaclavas and anonymise them. Look at the visuals.

I don't think you understand how serious risk it was to challenge imperial authority historically.

I'm not sure why you are equating the British Rule in Northern Ireland with Nazi Germany, or what point you're trying to make here. Obviously Imperialism is portrayed as bad thing in Rogue Trader - but also a petty, and incompetent thing. As I said earlier, it would have been easy for Carl to portray the Marines in a more evil, violent, oppressive, gestapo like way, but that's not what is in the actual image.

Crushing dissent is characteristic for tyranny and the Imperium is supposed to be the bloodiest regime imaginable..

Just like the bloody Romans. Hence the Pythonesque gag and multiple references to Life of Brian. It's satire.

 

[AranaszarSzuur]

There’s no “parallel” between a mohawk and a balaclava. A mohawk is an expression of individual identity, while a balaclava hides identity - they're completely different visually and signify completely different meanings. Nobody is looking at a punk with a mohawk his hands against the wall and thinking ‘terrorist’.

I don't know, punks tend to look the same to me. Punk is probably one of the most de-individualizing subcultures out there when it comes to looks. Punks have pretty much de-individualised paramilitary look, except that trash. Which makes super-muscular armed punks similar to paramilitary in balaclavas. And balaclavas are also a bandit thing and there are bandits in mohawks

You've missed the point completely. A balaclava hides your face, makes you less identifiable. A mowhawk makes you more identifiable. Trying to draw a visual parallel between a mohawk and a balaclava is a ridiculous stretch. If anything the Space Marines are wearing helmets that look more like balaclavas and anonymise them. Look at the visuals.

Mohawk makes you more identifiable when surrounded by the suitist subculture. In a place where almost everyone has punk look, it anonymises you by making you just another punk wearing the same hairstyle.

I don't think you understand how serious risk it was to challenge imperial authority historically.

I'm not sure why you are equating the British Rule in Northern Ireland with Nazi Germany, or what point you're trying to make here. Obviously Imperialism is portrayed as bad thing in Rogue Trader - but also a petty, and incompetent thing. As I said earlier, it would have been easy for Carl to portray the Marines in a more evil, violent, oppressive, gestapo like way, but that's not what is in the actual image.

I'm just saying that the image contains more allusions to The Trouble than to Life of Brian.

The image portrays them as evil, oppressive, Gestapo like way - arresting people for political dissent. It's obvious the ganger is arrested for dissent which probably carries death penalty, while a petty crime of vandalism would merely put him in penal legion.

Gestapo arrested people (including for being dissenters, writing dissenter graffiti and distributing leaflets) and them tortured them in captivity. Shooting people and then planting evidence is something done in countries that pretend to be democratic and usually prevented by law from open murder. Open tyrannies have official secret police that has licence to torture people.

It's not incompetent. It's competent and intentional. Arresting people for dissent is a part of imperial policy, not just petty behaviour.

You're ignoring all the historical facts about dictatorships to push your theory about petty incompetence. Shooting him would be petty and incompetent. Arresting him and putting to torture allows to obtain information about other dissenters and official public execution allows to strike fear into population.

Crushing dissent is characteristic for tyranny and the Imperium is supposed to be the bloodiest regime imaginable..

Just like the bloody Romans. Hence the Pythonesque gag and multiple references to Life of Brian. It's satire.

Except that it's not a gag. Pythonesque gags are taking a familiar situation and making it absurd. It's just a trope about dictatorial regimes played straight. It's just a reality of Imperial occupation.

In Life of Brian the scene was a joke because the Roman soldier gave Brian a grammar lesson instead of the expected result of sending him to torture and having him executed for being a dissenter as expected.

Torture and execution was a reasonable expectation basing on recent history (Nazi occupation of Europe, Soviet regimes, etc.). The movie turned it into a joke by subverting the expectation of horrible consequences. Soldiers acting as law enforcement wasn't a joke but historical reality for many oppressed people.

The scene from Monty Python is so iconic because people have historical background that allows them to understand what should happen. The scene is hilarious because we know from movies, books, history lessons, etc. that writing slogans against occupants was serious business and we know what happened to people who were caught. We see the terror of the protagonist (which we also know represents Jesus Christ) and expect that perhaps that's exactly what will get him crucified.
The gag subverts the expectation by the threatening imperial enforcer giving him a grammar lesson and making him write anti-imperial slogan 100 times instead.

When one comes from the same historical background that makes the Monty Python scene so hilarious, one understands what the ganger being arrested means. Perhaps one may be inspired to create a battle where the Imperial player defends an Imperial prison and the ganger's friends are trying to break him out.
Perhaps he talked and now Space Marines are assaulting a secret rebel compound.

 

[AranaszarSzuur]

So, returning to the topic of satire, I had following thoughts lately:

40k isn't satire, it's misery porn. Like the whole setting was created to make the Imperium necessary and there are many sources of horrible misery that pre-date the Imperium:
Loss of AI and servitors replacing it, hive worlds, psykers unwittingly opening gateways to demons, most common type of an alien being a species of space Nazis that live only for war, loss of technology, dependence on extremely advanced technologies that were created in dark age of technology, etc. all pre-date the Imperium.

It doesn't really set out to warn about anything, it has no message behind it, only "look at these people suffer" and "look, cool power armour!"I feel like there are lots of people in Wh40k PR side that (like the ones that generated all the social drama messages) just don't get it. They got the "wh40k is satire" meme from 1st ed community and "Imperium is the baddies" meme from Tv Tropes, but it was never really the point. The point was creating a setting where human species can exist only at cost of massive misery and oppression of vast majority of individuals and having cool miniatures fight battles in it.There were lots of satirical elements in 1st ed due to inspirations from 2000AD but later the setting got much more serious.

To quote Rick Priestley:
About the Emperor feeding on psykers:
"I was just trying to describe something utterly horrific but driven by necessity - hence an eternal moral dilemma. To save everyone how many are you prepared to sacrifice? It's just that classic piece of moral philosophy - it also picks up on that John Wyndham theme in the Chrysalids where the 'psykers' are regarded as witches/deviants and hounded or destroyed."

About the brutality of the Imperium:
"BIFFORD: The Imperium often argues that its brutal methods towards fighting aliens, daemons, and heretics are necessary and the best possible solution. But in fact the Imperium is self-deceiving - it THINKS this is the only way humanity survive. There are better ways it could do things, but that would require profound reforms that the elite don't want. The Imperium thus protects the interests of the elite at the expense of the masses. Its solution to problems is always to ask for more sacrifice. Do you agree? Is this what you envisioned?

PRIESTLEY: I never imagined 'The Imperium' thought about it at all Different factions within what I think I called the High Lords of Terra pursue their own agendas - some more rational than others - but there was always this element of psykers posing a genuine danger to humanity that legitimized 'witch hunts' and a certain amount of interference - at least that was the idea to start with. I always thought of individual worlds as being the personal fiefdoms of their planetary lords - hardly touched by the Imperium as such - indeed how could they be when they might be separated by decades of travel from Terra. So - I always imagined some worlds were perfectly nice and peaceful (until the Orks turn up!) others were largely forgotten about and a few had more-or-less become independant and self-sufficient by necessity. As the background evolved it became very samey - and the universe I had created to be varied and diverse became just one thing - one big war front - but such is the way I'm afraid.

Also - you have to consider the possibility that this 'IS' the only way humanity can survive "

Like there were political barbs here and there but the general idea was still of a setting that is a misery generator with medieval aesthetics. Like I think 40k is primary dystopia as an aesthetic rather than dystopia as a political message and it was even in in the 80s.

There's a big difference between writing something to criticize religion and taking criticisms of religion and thinking "Wow, cool misery! Let's write a setting where it's necessary and have little lead people kill each other!"
Stuff like Psykers being a gateway for warp creatures like Enslavers even before Chaos was introduced. It was written in the RT rulebook that only civilisations that repressed or controlled psyker survived. Additionally human psykers are exceptionally volatile which makes them a warp creature magnet.

The there's stuff like most common kind of alien you encounter is basically a mix of OG Nazi ideology (racial will, struggle being main purpose of life, social Darwinism, might makes right, etc.), allied propaganda about Prussian militarism and neo-nazi skinheads that will torture you and murder you for fun and then eat you.

Then in later lore, another alien empire next door collapsed in orgy of bloodshed and depravity creating a literal Chaos god and a its survivors either consider you an animal unworthy of consideration or outright want to hunt you for sport and enslave and torture you.

Even in the beginning there were many aspects of 40k that were dead serious. Like lots of 1st ed art, especially by Wil Rees, Tony Houghs (though some of his art depicting just a fraction of Ork cruelty was censored because it was deemed too terrifying) and Ian Miller is simply chilling. John Blanche's stuff usually was also pretty heavily on misery porn side.

 

[ManicMan]

Rogue trader was very much Satire and was ... yeah, copying and using alot of stuff which was also satrie.. Judge Dredd for example. though Dredd did go through an era where they lost alot of the satire and humour in the late 90s where all the kiddies were 'We are too grown up for this'.. come to think of it.. 40k started going that bit too..

 

[AranaszarSzuur]

Rogue trader was very much Satire and was ... yeah, copying and using alot of stuff which was also satrie.. Judge Dredd for example. though Dredd did go through an era where they lost alot of the satire and humour in the late 90s where all the kiddies were 'We are too grown up for this'.. come to think of it.. 40k started going that bit too..

Yeah, but there's a difference between having elements of satire and whole setting having satirical intent. Judge Dredd pretty much took copaganda like Dirty Harry to its logical conclusion.

Like you get echoes of that in Adeptus Arbites and Penal Legion where crimes of legionaires are similar to those unjustifiably harshly punished by Judge Dredd but it's more like a borrowing from already existing setting.

40k overall seems to much more focus on using aesthetics of dystopia for creation of atmospheric backdrop for gaming than actual political critique with taking elements for various dystopias to create grimdark for grimdark's sake.

 

[ManicMan]

'unjustifiably'.. bit of a problematic term.. pretty much anything is can justified by someone. in the world of 2000AD, most of the actions of the judges are justified. I would be far from saying they are right, but they justified them. justifying something and justice are often far from the same.

I would also debate 'dystopia'.. but that is complex and as it starts to move into political grounds, I would prefer not to go too much there. In rogue trader, there is pretty much only war (as was the main setting). The back stories created for most of the groups are written to by very bias.. the 'glory' of the Holy Empire, the 'savage' lesser developed cultures.. the openning of 'Waaargh da Orks' even says the Orks are a 'savage, brutal race who love war', which is the the same of military of all races, the Imperialim, the Eldar, the lot. If anything, Chaos is the only one in a more positive light as chaos is such a ingrained need of life, no matter what any organism wants..

ah, but again, this is getting too much into the ... metaphysical side of stuff and that's... not for someplace like here and way too long a subject for me to want to write too much about. For some interesting Satire, read Nineteen Eighty-Four by George Orwell, Gulliver's Travels by Jonathan Swift or go more light hearted with something like Repent Harlequin, said the Tick-tock man by Harlan Ellison. funny, all feature what could be called a dystopian setting.

 

[AranaszarSzuur]

'unjustifiably'.. bit of a problematic term.. pretty much anything is can justified by someone. in the world of 2000AD, most of the actions of the judges are justified. I would be far from saying they are right, but they justified them. justifying something and justice are often far from the same.

From what I understand there are lots of punishments and crimes in Judge Dredd that are absolutely over the top. Like for example from what I understand coffee is a banned drug and drinking it is severely punished. In Rogue Trader IIRC one of the reasons for being sent to penal legion were late library fees or something like that.

I would also debate 'dystopia'.. but that is complex and as it starts to move into political grounds, I would prefer not to go too much there. In rogue trader, there is pretty much only war (as was the main setting). The back stories created for most of the groups are written to by very bias.. the 'glory' of the Holy Empire, the 'savage' lesser developed cultures.. the openning of 'Waaargh da Orks' even says the Orks are a 'savage, brutal race who love war', which is the the same of military of all races, the Imperialim, the Eldar, the lot. If anything, Chaos is the only one in a more positive light as chaos is such a ingrained need of life, no matter what any organism wants..

I don't think there's any real bias when it comes to Orks. Orks were designed to wear stalhelms and SA caps and there were also Orks with Nazi inisignia in Book of Astronomicans, they were also designed to look like green carnivorous apes. Also, there's POV writing from Ork side that does nothing to paint them as something else than rulebook description.

The Eldar themselves just keep being haughty aristocrats and calling other races monkeys and also trying to avoid getting gobbled up by Slaanesh.

ah, but again, this is getting too much into the ... metaphysical side of stuff and that's... not for someplace like here and way too long a subject for me to want to write too much about. For some interesting Satire, read Nineteen Eighty-Four by George Orwell, Gulliver's Travels by Jonathan Swift or go more light hearted with something like Repent Harlequin, said the Tick-tock man by Harlan Ellison. funny, all feature what could be called a dystopian setting.

The thing is that generally, when talking about satire, people think about something like1984. It's designed to warn about where certain political trends may lead to by exaggerating them and also criticizing actual Stalinism. I also consider some of my work to be satire of this sort because it has political intent.
40k takes elements from 1984 and uses them as an aesthetic. That's why I consider it to be more of misery porn than satire at its core.

 

[jon_1066]

What a weird conversation. It is treating a bloated "setting" / game franchise developed over 30 odd years as a single piece of art created by a single mind and trying to find "the truth" as to what is it's message. 40K is the product of hundreds of designers and artists over the years, each with their own take on it.

Fundamentally it has been super successful because almost everyone can see what they want in it. You can take the fascist Imperium as satire, a warning, a state to be commended, whatever. It also is as broad as the galaxy it seeks to show. You can have medieval relics and superstition, a fascist state, high technology, low tech swords, it works on many different levels and many different settings. You can port almost any part of world history into it: Vietnam, WW2, the crusades, Roman civil war, medieval pilgrimages, ancient Egypt, and everything else in between. It's inspirations are so varied because it is the work of many without a single unifying source/style book that all writers must adhere to.

So is WH40K satire? Of course it is. It is also a load of other stuff as well, from a hard scifi setting where Titans blast each other to a stupid comic where orks fly around in F86 Sabres.