3e. vs 4e.

[ardyer]

I think WD 153 Dwarf Runes were previews of the 4th edition Dwarf army book. They are nice rules tho, I would allow them for any race, not just dwarves... more 2nd Editionish.

They were very different from what ended up being included in the fourth ed army book and they were peeved with the last third ed battle report.

Ah OK, I don't have the Dwarf Army book to compare, but that's interesting - more like the LaTD previews than the 40k Compendium etc. I read the introduction to The Battle of Grimdal's Tomb as being 'this was one of many development games for the new edition'. Not that it really matters at all - is there anything in the batrep that relies specifically on 3rd ed mechanics, or couldn't be done in 4th?

It's been a while since I read it, but the big thing that was different than what was encouraged in 4th ed was the troll cave side quest for a relic weapon as well as the dwarf player's essential suicide to keep the brettonians from winning.

In other words, there were several things requiring a GM that would be out off the ordinary with 4th.

 

[airbornegrove26]

I'm really glad you guys have kept the conversation going. Some very interesting points to contemplate. I'm heading down to the basement right now to check out WD 153 for the rune article.

 

[Zhu Bajie]

It's been a while since I read it, but the big thing that was different than what was encouraged in 4th ed was the troll cave side quest for a relic weapon as well as the dwarf player's essential suicide to keep the brettonians from winning.

In other words, there were several things requiring a GM that would be out off the ordinary with 4th.

Aha, thanks for that, it's interesting, kind of suggests that the dropping of the GM and narrative aspects was decided quite late in 4Es development.

 

[weazil]

For me, the standout difference over and above those already mentioned is the turn limit being written into the rules. 4th introduces a 4-6 turn limit on the game. This has changed the game significantly because it creates the 'charge-at-all-costs' mentality that has plagued the game since. Given that the movement rules are so clunky (and unimaginative, I think), it causes people not to spend any time on manoeuvres - the strategy all moves to deployment with very few armies being able to change their disposition much thereafter. That is a wild difference compared to something like Orc's Drift, where in some of the scenarios, up to the first three turns were 'scripted'.

4th edition still holds a special place for me as that was the edition that was able to play regularly, but there are no rose tinted glasses. Apart from the condensation of the various 'soft' stats into Leadership and the addition of flanking charges eliminating their target units' rank bonus, I believe the rest of the rules changes were for the worse.

I do believe the sweet spot will be a combination of 6th and 3rd edition.

 

[ardyer]

For me, the standout difference over and above those already mentioned is the turn limit being written into the rules. 4th introduces a 4-6 turn limit on the game. This has changed the game significantly because it creates the 'charge-at-all-costs' mentality that has plagued the game since.

That's a good point. I used to play a gentleman with a wood elf army who was virtually unbeatable because he was good at movement games and would always scrape out narrow victories because after 6 (or 4 or 5) you had barely (or not at all) tracked combat and he had picked off just enough of your stuff with arrows to win.

 

[Zhu Bajie]

That is a wild difference compared to something like Orc's Drift, where in some of the scenarios, up to the first three turns were 'scripted'.

which is 2nd edition, rather than 3rd

I found my copy of WD153, it was under the stack of Private Eye for some reason. With the Dwarf Runes, The Battle of Grimdal's Tomb and Night Goblins - they had already dropped Cl, Wp, Int, and the bat-rep claims the narrative elements as both "unusual" and the third force as not needing a player (or GM) because their objectives were so simple. I'm happy with my earlier assessment of this being previews of 4th Ed stuff, so I expect world peace and a cure for the common cold will follow in the wake of this revelation. Still, it's made me intrigued about the transition period. Anyone know when they butchered the statline?

 

[airbornegrove26]

Very interesting points Gaj.

Zhu I checked that out as well and stand with your thoughts.

I looked over the runes as well, some interesting stuff there. I don't know why I had never looked that article over. Might have to hack some of that stuff for my chaos dwarfs.

 

[Snickit]

Anyone know when they butchered the statline?

I believe you'll find it was first simplified for the new Empire range released just a few months before 4th's release with an Army list in White Dwarf that looks like a precursor to 6th edition lists as units could have Sergeants (low level champions) from the rank and file allowance.

 

[ramshackle_curtis]

I really dont mind the collapse of the stats into Ld.