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Re: Making the Oldhammer weekend less intimidating.

Lets hold our horses here. The only person that has really expressed a wish to play old minis only is me and if you read what I said I also said I would be happy to play against card counters in the future let alone modern painted armies. It's just my first choice is 80's lead and/or close looking contempories, just for the look and probably once that itch is scratched I'll be anyones!

I have a game already set up against Bug16, he has old undead so I'm sorted. I'm also bringing Forenronds last stand for people to join in with, don't tell anyone but if I'm lazy and don't get round to painting up two extra old cavalry there will be two 5th ed hawk riders riding old elf steeds on the elf side.

That's the way to go though, set up your game before hand if you can, then everyone knows what to expect.

So for the record, all minis welcome, there may be some solely retro games going on, from different periods but there will be plenty of period mashups.

PS Lenihan I'll be looking for games with 90's models in the future, even going so far as using 4th. I'd be very happy to see your 90's elves on display.
 
Re: Making the Oldhammer weekend less intimidating.

Orlygg":xpttwcsx said:
In my view, complaining about, or excluding, players with the 'wrong minis' at an Oldhammer event would be utter hypocrisy. Such a view reminds me of the attitude of a well known high street retailer!
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Yep, that's about the size of it! I believe you can make a perfectly good Oldhammer army out of 80s/90s citadel lead, modern plastics and even (especially!) alternative miniatures. It's the "feel" of the army and the game that's important, not the models you use. Of course it would be lovely if we could all get hold of every vintage citadel miniatures we wanted to build our dream armies, but that's just not reality.

I'd rather folks who wanted to play Warhammer 3rd/Rogue Trader made a force out of modern plastics (ideally with nice paintjobs and suitable converting!) than bankrupt themselves trying (and often failing) to acquire the necessary old lead. Because if you have to do that, most people would probably end up thinking its more trouble than it's worth to assemble such an army, and just give up. And that would be another potential Oldhammerer lost.
 
Re: Making the Oldhammer weekend less intimidating.

Not a problem Erny..
I just dont want people thinking it has to be old citadel lead only. Retro gaming is cool is my books and I would love to do it too. We just need to make sure any minis and anyone is welcome and leave the arguments to (is 4th oldhammer) ;)

I felt too confined for years with a certain mainline retailer and this area is a breath of fresh air to me. I will work hard to keep it. :)

Dale
 
Re: Making the Oldhammer weekend less intimidating.

Hi Erny, I didn't even realise your post might have been a problem, you only expressly stated a preference after all not an absolute :)
 
Re: Making the Oldhammer weekend less intimidating.

I have a confession to make...



Helga Fästman, one of the villagers from the Linden Way scenario, isn't 80's Citadel...

Mind you I'm not sure I'd want to take it up with her! :shock:

I think there might even be a few other ringers in there somewhere.

Seriously though, I think there's always been a bit of tension between the idea of Oldhammer as Archeogaming, to use Zhu's term, and the original vision (again Zhu's!).

2. There are no army lists except your own

Go and burn your Army Books, you don't need them any more. We're going back to basics.

Armies are constructed around a simple Points system, if you have spent X number of points on an army, and another player has spent the same number of points, then that's fair enough. You aren't restricted by choice of faction or race, if you want to field a troop of Wood Elf Archers in the same army as a troop of Feudal Knights, then go for it. Want to add in some Gnomes or some Lizard-centaurs or maybe even a Zombie Dragon, then go for it. This is how Forces of Fantasy [WFB1e] first introduced the concept of Army lists to Warhammer, the only restrictions being alignment (Good, Evil or Neutral), an innovation which is intended to preserve the flavour of the setting, and in no way an attempt to ensure armies are 'balanced' in strength.

All characters and wizards have the same access to the same magical weapons and spells, artefacts and war machines are not tied to armies. You want to field a Pump-wagon with your Dwarves? Go ahead. If you can pay the points for it, then you can have it. You can use Old School Fantasy Battle to recreate epic battles from fantasy films and novels, from Moorcock to Tolkien, you're not tied to one particular gaming world, and if you want to just grab whatever minis you have and have a bash, that's good too.

Because you're not restricted to collecting one range of miniatures, slavishly following a single Army Book, you're not forced to buy models that are just OK or playing 'counts as'. There are no core / special / rare troops, no obligatory choices, you build armies that make sense for your campaign, your scenario or for your miniatures collection.

While you might have guessed by now, it bears being said explicitly you're not limited to the miniatures of one manufacturer. While WFB1e does indeed lists Citadel order codes, there was nothing in the rules that you had to use those specific miniatures. Joe Dever and Gary Chalk happily suggesting Asgard and Dixon miniatures alongside Citadel miniatures in a Warhammer scenario based on The Lord of the Rings in White Dwarf magazine. You can use historicals from Perry Miniatures, Chaos Warrior HelsVakt from Red Box Games, Pig Faced Orcs from Otherworld, Elves from Thunderbolt Mountain, you can field huge lots of 80's Citadel miniatures you won on eBay, you can even field legions of plastic undead from Mantic, the choice is yours.

If you want to field strange exotic creatures carrying mystical force weapons that there are no rules for, then the points system is there [WFB2e and WH40K:Rogue Trader] to explain how to generate the stat-line and appropriate points values for such creatures. It's up to you and your referee, it's your game: in battle, there is no law.
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I think whatever our views are on using 80's miniatures we should be careful not to appear to display the same, albeit inverted views as the GW tournament scene.

My motivation for trying to collect all the scenario models for Orc's Drift and populate the various armies with minis from roughly around that era (although I suspect there should be a lot more 2nd ed stuff in there) was both to provide myself with an extra challenge and a chance to get my grubby mits on some of the figures I have gazed wistfully at in the pages of the rule books and old WD's for years.

I'd welcome a game with anyone who has a fully painted army with an interesting background, named characters, regiments with a history and a damn good narrative reason for being on the table top - manufacturer and age would not be a major concern :grin:

I don't know if many of you are familiar with King of Daveness's work with Skulldred - a fantastic fusion of 80's Citadel nostalgia, modern Reaper and other Manufacturers' figures - not to mention his own excellent Bederken Dwergs - along with some seriously cool retro painting.



Check this battle report out and tell me this isn't what Oldhammer is about - apart from the fact that the rules are different... :oops:

Erny is right as well about organising your game beforehand so that both players know what is expected - that's just common sense if you want the game to run smoothly and meet both players' expectations. If two consenting adults want to play with just old lead and get together to organise that, I don't see it as being necessarily exclusive. Like I say though its peoples' impressions of us as a movement - blogs mainly full of old lead - that are going to make their minds up and potentially put them off if they feel that that is some kind of entry requirement.

I think, despite having just done this myself :roll:, trying to hammer out a definition of Oldhammer and trying to nail down something as subjective as aesthetics isn't the best thing to do at this point in time. The one point we need to agree on is that we're not going to look down our noses at folk who bring along newer minis or get het up about those who have organised games with old lead because that's what they want.

Live and let live folk

Peace 8-)
 
Re: Making the Oldhammer weekend less intimidating.

Well I'm not even turning up at Foundry, so I'll let those that are battle out whether they're allowed to use Lego or pebbles or only recast slottas bough off ebay :razz: But what I would say is I think there are roughly 2 positions.

archeogaming
Original rules, original models, original paints. That doesn't mean only Citadel, but the models and rules and materials that were available at the time, so Humbol Enamels and Ral Partha miniatures are as authentic as slottas and Citadel Colour. Rules strictly BtB, no tinkering. The aim is to have as 'authentic' a recreation of the game as it was played at the time as possible. You would frown on the use slotta bases in a game of 1E. Growing mullets is encouraged, as is drinking Skol and listening to classic prog-rock on vinyl.

retrogaming
Using some pre-1991 elements, maybe the rules, or the models, or even just the GM concept to create something new. For example playing Songs of Blades and Heroes with 80s Citadel lead could be considered retrogaming, as could playing 1st Ed. Warhammer with modern miniatures. Houseruling modern concepts into earlier games (streamlining reserves phrase into double movement etc.) is also a retro gaming thing. How much old and how much new is a personal, aesthetic thing but generally being open-minded will help. Using modern miniatures based on early D&D art in Warhammer Quest retrogaming? HELL YEAH! Drinking real ale and growing a hipster beard are encouraged as is listening to post-rock on mp3.

Neither positions are 'elitist' but I would say they are exclusive of each other at their extremes. An archeo-game has a very specific goal, whereas retro-game might blow the field wide open.

Whoops just saw Thantants post, yeah, Skulldred is very cool - should clarify that my original 'Oldhammer Contract' is about using the rules of Warhammer in a retro-gaming context, but in spirit what Dave is doing is 100% compatible IMHO.
 
Re: Making the Oldhammer weekend less intimidating.

I did proper retro in my 1st ed reenactment game (viewtopic.php?f=15&t=169) and got it 'out of my system'. Now I just want to have fun, and a 3rd game or two, using whatever figures fit the fluff and are fun, done in the spirit of 3rd ed (which I have never lost, not being a competition type of player, but rather a story/campaign type player), would be great.

TBH, I am old enough and bold enough to just dive in, have fun, and let others join in if they want too. Certainly I would not be put off by some players setting up reenactment games with old figures and old rules. Each to their own.

Really do hope that no-one thinks they shouldn't come due to some sort of perceived elitism. Is not playing using old rules enough? Even when I played 3rd ed, less than half my figures, way, way less than half, were citadel. In fact, most were ones I had moulded myself (Prince August) or historical ones.
 
Re: Making the Oldhammer weekend less intimidating.

Lots of good responses from everybody on this. Zhu's Oldhammer contract really covers my view on what Oldhammer means to me. The biggest problem we face is that people are used to being guided/pushed into a restrictive mindset and breaking free from that can seem a bit weird initially.

As a kid, due to lack of figures, our games tended to look a bit like this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W_g_ZbGquSM ;)
 
Re: Making the Oldhammer weekend less intimidating.

Love the Skol! But I have photographic evidence to prove that Newcastle Brown in a chunky tin was the tipple of choice back in the day.

GD88MikeKevAndy_zpse3f710ed.jpg


Brown for the Brown God?
 
Re: Making the Oldhammer weekend less intimidating.

Padre":3kpaef44 said:
He does use a lot of ' :grin: 's which may well mean he is not serious. .
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I was not being serious...except for the competitive attitude toward drinking bit. :grin:

You are correct ... The smiley faces were the clue.

I honestly don't care what minis folks turn up with .... I especially like cheap plastic toys.

He-man Beastman Giant. £2.99 E-bay

027xjy.jpg


My Khorne army, which I consider as oldhammer as you like, only has a handful of vintage metal.
(I have some of the RoC era Chaos Warriors used as champions).
Most of the army is made up of Battlemasters plastic picked up very cheaply.

img6055.jpg


img6056.jpg


Some army Shots:

img6067.jpg


img6189o.jpg


So I am not in a good spot to complain about anyone turning up with plastic.

I think one of the central things about Oldhammer is playing with whatever minis you like.
 
Re: Making the Oldhammer weekend less intimidating.

Skarsnik & Old Lead":39dwxeey said:
Harry":39dwxeey said:
Well unless I have missed the point the weekend is for anyone enjoying playing a game using an older rule set with older minis ... and the only competitive attitude they need to bring is toward drinking. :grin:

I'm not even that bothered about playing ... I am honestly happy just to enjoy watching a narrative game unfold.

As to your questions wouldn't dream of turning down a game against anything metal. :grin:

Wouldn't question someone's right to be there ... no requirement to turn up with any miniatures at all to enjoy the the games and miniatures on the tables .... just don't try put any plastic on the table and expect to get out alive. :grin:

30-130 makes no difference BUT I would prefer it to be 10 people and a dog called Colin than have one idiot who missed the point of a game played for fun rather than to win. :grin:

Just my views ... don't speak for or represent the views of this forum or anyone else for that matter.
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I would agree with almost all of this. I haven't even booked myself in for any games, and I'm not sure I'll be bringing along any models. I just want a chance to hang out, meet fellow oldhammerers in person, have a beer, see some lovely old minis, and perhaps push a few soldiers around if someone is kind enough to let me.

The only thing that I differ on is the miniatures that people bring. In my mind oldhammer is a way of thinking about the game rather than a specific set of models. If someone rocked up with an awesome army made up of the latest plastic figures, but had a great backstory for the general and his troops and played the game in the right spirit, I'd welcome them in the same way as someone who had an army made up of 1980's lead.

For me oldhammer is about the attitude you bring rather than the models you bring.
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This sums up my position rather nicely!
 
Re: Making the Oldhammer weekend less intimidating.

I've thought long over this question of elitism regarding old rules and miniatures, and to be honest - I don't really care what other people think - I've played the game (in various forms) & been collecting these things for the last thirty plus years, and played different armies in many guises, so, if someones got a problem with this event - its their problem, not mine.
Rational - I play the game and usually enjoy the company of like-minded souls and this event is an opportunity to put ourselves and our collections in the limelight, which in my humble opinion everyone should get the chance to stand-in, occasionally.
So, lets do this thing, and let others consider their positions.

Paul / Golgfag1

http://explorersfoundation.org/glyphery/122.html
 
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