okay, I'm out of date.. what's this all about? The Empire and Skulls

ManicMan

ManicMan

Lord
I understand how the Empire kinda got a confusing name bit to 'The Empire of Man' which it was kinda referred to as but not.. I think "Empire of Man" is kinda stupid name but oh well...

But I really don't remember all this Skull mad thing. Recently with my GW voucher (hey, if you ordered a metal reissue and nothing since, atleast they give you £10 of a next order. neat) to get a Steam Tank. Kinda want to build one myself but that isn't gonna happen any time soon, and the original is.. pricey.. so a version of the 2009 release version, which was kinda minor retool from, about 2002 issue version, was fair enough. the Manual has a couple of mistakes, I think some of the sculpting is very overly done (detailed boiler room that is 99% NOT visible when put together?) but nice enough with some nice options..

The one thing bothering me is all the skulls. I remember someone commented on that on some 6ed stuff but... seriously, what happened to make the Empire all about Skulls? I can understand it maybe around Stirland, with the whole Sylvania Vampire stuff (though surely they would be against that as the Skulls would be Vampire Iconograph? but I'm sure they always had bits at times.

I did wonder if it was trying to be overly careful with the whole Germanic eagle thing but nope, that's still there.. So I'm clueless
 
My guess is it's GW catering to pre-teen boys with what they (GW) think those kids must consider to be cool; skulls.
"Chaos and undead have skulls? Do they sell better than empire? If so, must be because of the skulls!"

Ridiculous amount of skulls and their absurd placement has been GW's forte for a long time, though I think it reached brand new heights beginning in mid 00s or so. My personal favourites, besides terrain pieces like skullvane manse with gigantic skulls, are wulfrik the wanderer (a chaos hero who, if I counted correctly, has whopping 18 skulls on his persona) and the demon, the myth, the legend: skulltan of swing, skulltaker the widow-maker AKA skulltaker, who makes wulfrik look like absolute greenhorn when it comes to being a collector.

GW and skulls are like bread and butter; they just work together.
 
^_^; ehuh.. I kinda left things when 5ed was being announced and started to get released. stuck with 40K for a bit longer but then around 3ed I kinda left that or when 3ed was coming out.. don't remember reading a new rule book but remember hearing about it.

if they want oversized skulls, they probably should have gotten Bob Olly back.

Boy that Skulltaker figure looks. kinda rubbish... quite bland design wise.. probably fine as an army builder but clearly not...
 
Seriously though, for my liking GW really overuses the whole 'everything is grimdark and people must be regularly reminded of it by adding skulls everywhere' mentality. With the empire, memento mori and danse macabre kind of stuff suits the theme and don't seem off at all (though would absolutely be more effective if used more sparsely), but it all just seems very strange when you have regular empire soldiers wandering the battlefield without shoes, yet having a skull hanging from their belt.

Empire general box also comes (or at least used to come) with this small cherub that has a skull mask (or one helluva mouldline!) and some clockwork stuff going on its belly. Bizarre on multiple levels. Sort of fantasy version of servo-skull or something else?

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ManicMan said:
I did wonder if it was trying to be overly careful with the whole Germanic eagle thing but nope, that's still there.. So I'm clueless
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Just had a look at the empire state troop transfer sheet. Plenty of skulls, eagles and crosses.

ManicMan said:
if they want oversized skulls, they probably should have gotten Bob Olly back.
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And not just for skulls but for gloves as well. Not enough minis have gloves these days and those seemed to be Olley's trademark.
 
The skull design has been a theme since the beginning, just look at the work of their art director and lead concept artist.
Guess it’s just an iterative process that became more prominent to the point of acknowledged parody, but it is what distinguishes Warhammer from other pseudo historical fantasy settings.
Some of it may seem OTT, but not hard to pick and choose, snip and file what you don’t like.
Seriously, is it such a big deal that the IP has developed past how you remember it?
 
Geroak II said:
it all just seems very strange when you have regular empire soldiers wandering the battlefield without shoes, yet having a skull hanging from their belt.
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Actually, not having shoes may be a very sensible choice. Plenty of evidence that fighters through history have preferred fighting barefoot for better grip. It's a choice, not a mark of poverty. Similarly, carrying skulls around may have been a big thing amongst early Britons, not just those of enemies but also ancestors and colleagues. They may have believed they could tap the power or spirit of the deceased by wearing their skull.
 
Brother Meredith said:
Seriously, is it such a big deal that the IP has developed past how you remember it?
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not really. It's just when something morphs into something else, without logical 'evolution' it can bother me. It's like when a TV or comic or something can't be arsed to create something new, so they pile on stuff to change a character into something completely different and you wonder why they can't just remember what a script bible is. Happens alot with "remakes" which are soo different, you wonder why they want to con people to cash in on the old name instead of having it stand on its own feet.

The odd skull is fine, it was a symbol used by the small robber barons in the city outskirts, more then the wealthy and high ranking. I did fine the Karl Franz skull logo weird in 4ed armies as It didn't match the high status given to the Emperor from Altdort instead of something like his Imperial Griffon standard.
 
I am minded to agree, the skullz are very pervasive, less is more.
I bought the re-released fortified manor and have decided not to make it due to the skullz and spikez.
 
I'll be doing a bit of custom work on this tank which.. while metal is good, plastic can be easier to hack and slash ^_^. for example, I like the original cannon with the dragon at the base. The plastic gives two options for a cannon, neither of them have that. But have added play feature of being able to move the barrel up and down ^_^ (I always debate between the 'toy' features and 'model' features. Like one tank I made.. which I need to finish sometime and do some tweaking to.. but that's a completely different thing)

also, I'm not sure on the two turret mounted guns... one is easy to remove by just not putting it there, the other is a bit harder but not by much, I'm just not sure I like it being there.
 
Skulls…
Been there from very early on…
Interesting to see the prevalence of pinned scrolls on the character artwork in WFRP 4ed, jumped out to my eyes after years away if anything rather than the number of skulls.
Perhaps it is that more are displayed on the miniatures that is jarring to you?
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For me at least it seems that from 4th onwards they started appearing on everything, shields and banners seems ok to me.
But then on armour, and civilian dress, and carts, and cannons, and buildings, and then horses, and then spikez, and then spikez on skullz and skullz on skullz, and then moar of them.
I feel it went from reasonable to a pastiche/parody of itself. Like I say as a heraldic device it makes sense to me, but as a day to day decoration?
Maybe it is the warhammer worlds version of the trendy Live Laugh Love?
 
A couple of pages before that horse, you see the skull which works as it explains, robber baron's groups and some outlaying stuff. For example, Wulfbad which is in Stirland. But either way, I have no problem with Skulls in bits. I makes sense in some regards, it's just how over kill and stupid it became. Looks like instead of used by the odd ones in the outskirts and the nastier elements, it's became the source of worship for everyone.
 
Ah, sorry.. Wortbad, yes.
ruled by Graf Alberich Haupt Andersson, "The Hawk of Wurtbad". colour scheme is purple with white/silver, Skull has been seen on his Imperial Hohensknechte. Very similar purple/white/silver worn by the followers of Sigma, one of the many 'gods' worshipped in the Empire. back when it wasn't everyone worshipped him ¬_¬;

I know the Empire is a mix of cultures and stuff but I wish they would make up their mind if it's the German 'Graf', the English 'Earl' or the original 'Count'... Guess that is more regional..
 
To me it's very clearly the John Blanche influence - he uses early modern, Northern Renaissance art (Durer and Cranach especially) as a primary inspiration behind his pieces for Warhammer, and that time period was in many ways real-life grimdark, at least in art. There was an obsession with the macabre, mystical, hellish, and above all "memento mori" or the danse macabre / totentanz / dance of death. I don't have the time at the moment to dig into my art folder for examples, but I'll return to the thread later to show what I mean. Many of Blanche's pieces for WFRP1 actually include direct references to these pieces, where figures are more-or-less traced over from famous engravings of that time period.
 
Just wondering.. we aren't talking about the original meaning of 'memento mori' are we? we are talking about the later nihilism view? well... not quite nihilism cause that doesn't care about death cause nothing has meaning, even death... But we are talking about the old Death worship side more then the original which is just to keep your ego in check really, what people must remember that in the end, they will die, so fill your life with what you can.

Vae orbis terrium, quia morietur, If I got that right. Doesn't seam to quite fix with the whole holy roman empire/Germanic Empire but.. mm
 
ManicMan said:
Just wondering.. we aren't talking about the original meaning of 'memento mori' are we? we are talking about the later nihilism view? well... not quite nihilism cause that doesn't care about death cause nothing has meaning, even death... But we are talking about the old Death worship side more then the original which is just to keep your ego in check really, what people must remember that in the end, they will die, so fill your life with what you can.

Vae orbis terrium, quia morietur, If I got that right. Doesn't seam to quite fix with the whole holy roman empire/Germanic Empire but.. mm
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Well the other thing you have to keep in mind is that it was the 1980s....

I have to say though I don't disagree that they went overboard later on
 
eh, mostly 90s when they went more on that.. very late 80s. so.. late 80s was the days of Neon colours (why do people swear it was the 90s when it was the late 80s, and dying out in the early 90s... mmm)

but fair enough ^_^ atleast we are getting some nice fun debate and discussion. I like fun debate and discussion ^_^
 
With no evidence I think skulls changed a bit in "Warhammer" with Wayne England's more stylised skull drawings (think it was Wayne wasn't it?). Then they started to be little inserts everywhere (thinking Talisman (3rd) and so forth). Before that they felt more grounded, but then I think the worlds felt darker and the skulls were more in context - so it was more when it was all getting a bit more into the "red/playful era". Then it perhaps became a bit of a running joke for a while and has stuck. I would guess with digital modelling these days it's so easy to just throw a row of skulls on something!
 
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