What is: Rogue Trader?

ManicMan

ManicMan

Lord
okay.. it might seam like a bit of a dumb question but.. I think when you think about it, it becomes pretty complex and tricky..

I think around early 1987, Citadel released it's first figures under the name of Rogue Trader, which kinda come out of the late 70s stuff like Combat 3000 & Laserburn. However, Rogue Trader didn't really last long and many of the figures in that first set aren't really compatable with 1stEd WH40K..

now.. i don't remember or know if much of Rogue trader got released other then those first figures, and as it changed and evoled, they then decided to change the name (meant to be due to them getting the rights to make Rogue Trooper stuff), and what was published was Warhammer 40K: Rogue Trader.

After First Edition, the second edition did a huge change in forcus and removed the whole Rogue Trader side alltogether as it became not about the traders, but about the imperial 'police' states instead.

From what seams to be around.. The original Rogue trader doesn't really share too much with Wh40K:RT. And alot of what seam to define 40K also came out of 'side' games like Space Crusade and Space Hulk which.. are great but clearly not much connected to Rogue Trader..

So.. when people talk about Rogue trader.. What are they talking about? Are they talking about Rogue Trader, or are they talking about WH40K:RT (Wh40K:1st Ed).. and just how much of the original Rogue Trader does exist or was released, other then them original 17 or so figures, back when they were Space Orcs (not Orks), Space Elfs (not Eldar), Pisceanss and Imperial Troopers.
 
Personally the short answer for me is that I'd be talking about WH40K:RT if I said Rogue Trader, but that's more due to my notable exposure to the term as it "being" 40K rather than the other earlier product lines. So I'd not really crossed my mind. I shall now have to hark back properly though old White Dwarfs to have a look at how it evolved (there at least).
 
One thing find of interest is that there days, it's mostly space marines and yet.. in the original figures.. no space marines.. the closest are what would be called Imperial guard later on.

I can also never quite figure out if 'Dreadnought Armour' became the Tactical Dreadnought Armour (also known as Terminators) or was more the pre-curser to the Dreadnoughts as they are kinda a mixture of the two things.. I don't have many White Dwarfs from the right era (issues range is something like 80 - 130 I think)
 
ManicMan":d1m4dfx1 said:
okay.. it might seam like a bit of a dumb question but.. I think when you think about it, it becomes pretty complex and tricky..

I think around early 1987, Citadel released it's first figures under the name of Rogue Trader, which kinda come out of the late 70s stuff like Combat 3000 & Laserburn. However, Rogue Trader didn't really last long and many of the figures in that first set aren't really compatable with 1stEd WH40K..

now.. i don't remember or know if much of Rogue trader got released other then those first figures, and as it changed and evoled, they then decided to change the name (meant to be due to them getting the rights to make Rogue Trooper stuff), and what was published was Warhammer 40K: Rogue Trader.
Click to expand...
Rogue Trader was something that Rick Priestley brought with him to GW. Originally it was a mainly spaceship battle game. Then they were playing in-house Rogue Trader and some miniatures were made. From what I understand, both C100 Space Marines and LE series were from 1985. LE2 Space Marines appeared in Heroes for Wargames from 1986.
Then there was the whole 1987 release that was just before the rulebook. I have listened to a few podcasts with Rick Priestley and that's how much I remember. Sadly, I didn't think to take notes, so I haven't learned the history well.

ManicMan":d1m4dfx1 said:
From what seams to be around.. The original Rogue trader doesn't really share too much with Wh40K:RT. And alot of what seam to define 40K also came out of 'side' games like Space Crusade and Space Hulk which.. are great but clearly not much connected to Rogue Trader..

So.. when people talk about Rogue trader.. What are they talking about? Are they talking about Rogue Trader, or are they talking about WH40K:RT (Wh40K:1st Ed).. and just how much of the original Rogue Trader does exist or was released, other then them original 17 or so figures, back when they were Space Orcs (not Orks), Space Elfs (not Eldar), Pisceanss and Imperial Troopers.
Click to expand...
Almost everyone who talks about Rogue Trader in Oldhammer sense means 40k 1st ed. Like there are very few people who had access to the original stuff. I suspect if any of it still exists, it's somewhere in GW archives or Bryan Ansell's or Rick Priestley's collections.
From what Rick Priestley said, the Rulebook was pretty much complete fluff at that point, missing only space ship stuff and as 40k took off, he lost a lot of creative control and it was taken in a completely different direction than he intended to.
 
AranaszarSzuur":216d2l14 said:
Rogue Trader was something that Rick Priestley brought with him to GW. Originally it was a mainly spaceship battle game. Then they were playing in-house Rogue Trader and some miniatures were made. From what I understand, both C100 Space Marines and LE series were from 1985. LE2 Space Marines appeared in Heroes for Wargames from 1986.
Click to expand...

maybe.. does seam kinda right but partly at odds with the laserburn issues which had the Dreadnought armour, Power Armour Imperium etc (Bryan Ansell in 1980 - 1983) and Combat 3000 (and 3001_ which was Rick Priestley with Richard Halliwell (1979) and 3001 was just Halliwell due to Priestly not replying to lettes (1981).. one problem with some interviews though, is.. people mis-remember or just get details wrong.. but its a pretty mess to figure out alot of the stuff
 
When people say Rogue Trader, in an oldhammer context, they generally mean WH40K:RT - although the name is now used for numerous other 40k products - the FFG RPG, and 40k Killteam set.

The pre-publication history of Rogue Trader is hellishly complex (not least because the setting, the game design, and the model design and art are all separate strands). I've been trying to piece things together for a blogpost, and it gets really big. From what I can see there are a few major periods of development.

1. 1979 Spacefarers | Laserburn centred around Citadels sci-fi miniatures range. It's not 100% clear to me which came first - Bryan Ansells draft rules and setting or the miniature designs, but these form some of the basis of what would become WH40K:RT, although in a kind of roundabout way through the fixation of certain design themes, notably : Powered armoured Imperial Marines, Space Pirates in puff-slash style costume. Hooded and metal masked Cultists. Borrowing stuff from 2000ad.

2.1981 Rick Priestly's original unpublished rules Rogue Trader: First Draft which involved ship-to-ship combat rules as well as ground forces - which also ties in with Ricks Q.T. models and the Star Force 300 / Encounter 1 / Spacehound thing. I believe this was completely separate to the development of Spacefarers | Laserburn and Combat 3000 or Warhammer. The intention is this would be built around the existing / to be remodelled Citadel sci-fi Spacefarers range.

3. 1985. Rogue Trader: First Draft was then Warhammer-ified in Rogue Trader: Second Draft - which AFAIK still had the ship-to-ship combat rules, but swapped out whatever Ricks ground combat system was for Warhammers core rules, This was around 1985, immediately after Rick had finished work on the Judge Dredd RPG, and coincides with Bob Naismiths LE1 Space Orc and LE2 Space Marine models (used in playtesting), but draws on the earlier Citadel Compendium 'Warhammer and Sci-fi" material.

4. 1986 Rogue Trader: Third Draft which AFAIK still had the ship-to-ship combat rules, and the setting material added in and fleshed out. Notably the C44 Spaceships range is advertised in a flyer with a Trader (Rogue) craft. and the C100 Space Marines are launched. Design work on the RTB01 plastic space marines is done.

5. WH40K:RT published october 1987, alongside RTB01 Plastic Marines and the RTB02 Space Orks. Final draft, ship-to-ship combat s dropped 'due to space', Apparently the White Dwarf 131 (1991) Space Fleet setting info (but not game design) came from this draft material.

Thats kind of the shape of it!
 
Zhu Bajie":2ztztx0s said:
When people say Rogue Trader, in an oldhammer context, they generally mean WH40K:RT - although the name is now used for numerous other 40k products - the FFG RPG, and 40k Killteam set.

The pre-publication history of Rogue Trader is hellishly complex (not least because the setting, the game design, and the model design and art are all separate strands). I've been trying to piece things together for a blogpost, and it gets really big. From what I can see there are a few major periods of development.

1. 1979 Spacefarers | Laserburn centred around Citadels sci-fi miniatures range. It's not 100% clear to me which came first - Bryan Ansells draft rules and setting or the miniature designs, but these form some of the basis of what would become WH40K:RT, although in a kind of roundabout way through the fixation of certain design themes, notably : Powered armoured Imperial Marines, Space Pirates in puff-slash style costume. Hooded and metal masked Cultists. Borrowing stuff from 2000ad.

2.1981 Rick Priestly's original unpublished rules Rogue Trader: First Draft which involved ship-to-ship combat rules as well as ground forces - which also ties in with Ricks Q.T. models and the Star Force 300 / Encounter 1 / Spacehound thing. I believe this was completely separate to the development of Spacefarers | Laserburn and Combat 3000 or Warhammer. The intention is this would be built around the existing / to be remodelled Citadel sci-fi Spacefarers range.

3. 1985. Rogue Trader: First Draft was then Warhammer-ified in Rogue Trader: Second Draft - which AFAIK still had the ship-to-ship combat rules, but swapped out whatever Ricks ground combat system was for Warhammers core rules, This was around 1985, immediately after Rick had finished work on the Judge Dredd RPG, and coincides with Bob Naismiths LE1 Space Orc and LE2 Space Marine models (used in playtesting), but draws on the earlier Citadel Compendium 'Warhammer and Sci-fi" material.

4. 1986 Rogue Trader: Third Draft which AFAIK still had the ship-to-ship combat rules, and the setting material added in and fleshed out. Notably the C44 Spaceships range is advertised in a flyer with a Trader (Rogue) craft. and the C100 Space Marines are launched. Design work on the RTB01 plastic space marines is done.

5. WH40K:RT published october 1987, alongside RTB01 Plastic Marines and the RTB02 Space Orks. Final draft, ship-to-ship combat s dropped 'due to space', Apparently the White Dwarf 131 (1991) Space Fleet setting info (but not game design) came from this draft material.

Thats kind of the shape of it!
Click to expand...
Sort of depressing that so much of that stuff has basically disappeared. Like there's the whole Rogue Trader fandom and Laserburn is still in print but other than that, lots of stuff that exists as only a few photos on boardgame sites.
And of course sad we'll never get to read Rogue Trader drafts.
 
^Oh, never say never. Millicent Hodson managed to reconstruct Njinisky's original choreography to the Rite of Spring pretty convincingly largely from sketches and a score literally lost in the back of a closet. Maybe some day fifty or a hundred years down the line the original draft material will turn up in some dusty box from the back of an attic.

I had no idea of the iterations RT went through before publication. Yes, like most of us when I say RT I mean the original 40K book we all know and love. Makes me a lot more curious about old White Dwarf, but I wasn't even aware the magazine existed until just before the second edition came out. (I think I have exactly two print issues from about 1992 in my personal collection.) Just completely missed it somehow. I suppose I need to dig through the friendly neighborhood archives and read those early editions better. Definitely interesting stuff.

I had no idea Priestly had a relationship with QT models. That explains so much. (And man, I want more of those early QT castings.)
 
I can imagine that some of the drafts exist in some storage area someplace, in the dark.. waiting to come out
 
FeX6-IMXEAE6NhK


Just a photo of Jez Goodwin that Trish Carden posted on twitter. https://twitter.com/TrishCarden/status/ ... 9389487105

AranaszarSzuur":mm5csz38 said:
Sort of depressing that so much of that stuff has basically disappeared. Like there's the whole Rogue Trader fandom and Laserburn is still in print but other than that, lots of stuff that exists as only a few photos on boardgame sites.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I think its a shame a lot of the TTG stuff has just disappeared, or goes for silly money on the collectors market. Chris Nicole Games has re-released Encounter One (which was based on the QT Models range) and Encounter Two (for free) https://chrisnicolegames.blogspot.com I think you'd enjoy the Dune-esque timeline in Encounter One - early days of The Imperium of Man?

symphonicpoet":mm5csz38 said:
Makes me a lot more curious about old White Dwarf, but I wasn't even aware the magazine existed until just before the second edition came out. (I think I have exactly two print issues from about 1992 in my personal collection.) Just completely missed it somehow.
Click to expand...

Back when GW was based in London and Citadel based in Nottingham, there wasn't an awful lot of Warhammer coverage in White Dwarf - but there is an awful lot of good gaming material. Most of my overview is gleaned from statements in the Citadel Compendiums and Journals, along with detail from various interviews.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top