WFB3 Leaders & Champions ?

[PlainsWorld90]

Guys I'm stumped over this....

So during WFB3 many of the "regiment" sets came with 4 "full command" minis, mainly the Leader, Champion, Musician and Standard Bearer.

After this the "Leader" was missing from the full command choice, what exactly is the Leader supposed to be ? as I understand this you can have a champion and mus/standard for each unit, so where does the Leader come into play here ? are they actually meant to be separate Hero HQ for that section of the army or am I missing something here and you could indeed buy a champ and a leader at the same time ?

Thanks for clarification.

 

[ManicMan]

Page 74 of the Rulebook:
Every unit must begin the game with a leader model distinguishable from its fellows in some way. The leader model is always placed in the centre of the front rank of formation.

 

[Zhu Bajie]

If you're referring to the Regiments of Renown sets most of them were designed and produced for 1st and 2nd Edition, I think only the last 2 had rules expressed in terms of 3rd, although they are quite straight-forward to convert. They came with 4 command figures, standard, musician, champion and leader.

The leader models, such as Scarloc from RRD4 Skarloc's Wood Elf Archers are usually described as a Major or Minor Heroes (2nd Edition parlance, rather than 3rds numerical Levels), so in terms of games rules, these are independent Character Models (WFB2:Combat p.38 / WFB3 p.90) who have taken leadership of the unit. A unit can also have a champion as well, but they have to stay with the unit and aren't independent characters.

If you're using 2nd Ed. Ravening Hordes or 3rd Ed. Warhammer Armies lists, then they'd come out of the Characters points allocation.

 

[PlainsWorld90]

I see

Currently I only have Warhammer Armies and both ROC books ( I got into FB in 4th back then and only recently got these reprints/armies book later ). So I was used to how it went from there on, ie 3 full command and was not aware of this.

If I understand it all correctly then, in FB3 ( and 1 and 2 ? ) you MUST take a "LEADER" model for all regiments ? I'm not talking about RR here I know those are specific special ones. For example, if you were taking 6 beastmen in a slaanish army from Slaves to darkness you would have the 6 beastmen base cost. Then if you choose you could add a musician, a standard, and a champion for some 50% more per model in that ? at the same time just the base 6 of them have to have one that is called the leader ?

The leader is actually free but is supposed to be a unique looking model ?

It's confusing because after 3rd each unit is marked with just "you can choose to add full command at x point cost for each" with no leader mentioned. To make matters worse for something like Demon units in STD they don't usually have command listed or some units, but in Armies it says you can take a champ mus standard. Does 3rd rulebook apply then with both ROC books for all 4 command options ?

Ie if I took 8 bloodletters I have one model that looks boss vs the rest, then if I wanted to could add in the 3 full command ?

Most of the marauder troop sets came with 4 command models and this is why I was like why is there a leader, champ, musician, standard so it was a 3ed thing that one has to stand out regardless if you took 3 command or not hmm.

 

[ManicMan]

A leader for a unit is pretty much just a normal figure which you decide is the leader, BUT a leader MUST standout, mostly using champions as Characters.

Page 29 of the Armies book stays to 'Allocate characters to units as leader champions, if you haven't done so when selecting units or characters. Some characters may be left as independent heroes or wizards but these may still be associated with a unit in order to gain shelter from missle fire.

page 73 of the rule book says that every unit must begin with a leader which is a model distinguishable from its fellows in some way but states the vast majority of leaders are of hte same race and have the same characterstic values as the fighting warriors.. So. I would say a unit doesn't NEED to be lead by a champion but.. slight wording confusion there..

anyway.. in a Unit, you MUST have a leader which is easy to tell it's a leader. So if you have 8 bloodletters which one looks more like the boss then pick him as the leader. After that, you can If you wish, add Standard berers, Musicans and champions. A Champion can be just a champion of that unit under the command of the leader, or can be the leader.

I'm more of a 4thEd player (though it's been some time) and have only basic experince with 3rd so if someone with more experince with 3rd wants to point out other bits (I don't have Realms of chaos for example), then it will probebly help more.

 

[PlainsWorld90]

Yea the reason this is so weird and confusing is both based on the models themselves and the rules at the same time.

An example here, if we take something like the dark elf warriors and chaos thugs or beastmen regiments ( archer ones ) all from Marauder. They come with 4 command models, the leader, the champion, the standard and musician.

Now I get the rules here that technically a champion can be the unit's leader, regardless if we pay for a champ/rest of command...we always have to have one model that stands out that is designated to visually be the LEADER. Where it gets confusing is, if we decide to take all 3 full command options...can you just have 3 there in the front rank and claim the champ is the units leader, or do we still literally need a 4th model here that visually acts as the leader...but literally has no special rules or anything like that other than a visual type "he is the boss" ???

If this is canon rules, then what it literally means is for every unit in the game, be it like chaos knights, chaos dwarves, empire x troops etc..if IF we choose full 3 command we technically need 4 models every time before we can start adding the regular troops to whatever unit that is ? or am I correct that if we have 3 we only need 3 if one is paid for as the champ who then turns into the champ and both the leader at the same time ?

A very wonky rule if true because your paying for 3 command, but then the 4 the leader is just a visual model only and is nobody special points wise or rules.

 

[ManicMan]

You can take Champ, Standard and Musican and then say the Champ is the leader (though a unit needs to have atleast 5 figures), to which the champ then has to be in the centre of the front row. Leaders DO have some command rules.

) Leader is always placed in the centre of the front rank of the units formation. If the unit turns to face anothe direction, leader model is moved to b the centre of that front rank.

) Leader is the reference point for the unit's centre. Casualtys are removed from the sides to keep the leader in the centre.

) If the leader is a character which has Ld, Int, Cl or WP bonuses, that is added to the troops when taking a charactertistic test. but bonues can't be higher then 10 or make the group higher then the leader (example given is if a Goblin leader had the Ld for 8 with a +3 bonus, but was leading some Orcs with a troop Ld of 7, the unit would only go to 8 and not 10 cause 10 is higher then the leader.

) If a leader is stain, the unit has problems and can only do a one simple and a free manoeuvre during movement. Complex or additional manoeuvres can't be done.

) while you can't really target a leader for missle fire, there are somes cases when it can be and any hand-to-hand attacking against the leader is worked out the separately to the unit.

basically, leaders make the unit function much better and if you have a character, like a champion as a leader, you get some bonuses which can improve the unit as a whole.

You don't need a Seperate figure being the leader IF you have a character, like the Champ, being the unit leader.

 

[PlainsWorld90]

Ok so what happens then in the case of you start a unit of 8 beastmen, 1 is the leader ( but only visually he stands out vs the rest of the 7 troops )...finally you have the option of turning 3 of them into champion, standard, and musician.

If you kept the leader and the champ, does the champ take over AS leader, or you literally ( can ) have both ? I know you are saying you can turn the champ into the leader, but what happens to that 4th "leader" model in such a case ?

Where this is confusing is what happens to that 4th leader model once the full 3 command options are taken. Does the Leader exist for when you don't pick the 3 command ? or does he remain as only a visual model even when 3 full command are taken ?

See after 3rd how this all went was you had literal independent Hero/HQ models, technically chosen from your General/HQ section of the army lists. While they can/could be added to units of troops or act on their own, they were never part of choosing those units of troops or elites etc.

While the 3 full command had rules to them, they were not heroes...they basically were armed the same as the rest of those units simply filling those command options with some rules that gave them a bit of a buff vs characters themselves if that makes sense ?

Like I'm wondering here if the reason they had this 4th "Leader" model in 3rd troop sets etc, was so that if someone wanted they could use that mini as a hero from that section of the army, kinda like as a bonus here is a hero mini you can use as a leader model or if you go the 3 command route you can turn him into a hero as someone like Teclis or an Empire Captain you see what I mean ? it's very confusing over this specific part because the models exist, and we know how 3 full command work, but it's not so easy to understand what exactly happens here.

Cause we don't have to have that leader model once 3 full command is chosen ? since the champion can then take over as leader ? And there is still your main General/Hero/HQ choice for an FB army, the rest essentially fall into or are bought as minor heroes such as champs in units, but not the literal LEADER model itself which is only a visual thing in 3rd and has no points or hero stats assigned to it.

Which would mean instead of having just the same 8 looking beastmen ( as the top part ) you would have 7 beastmen and then a unique looking model you have calling your leader, but has no extra points cost or any of that it's again only a visual thing that has to exist in FB3 if you don't purchase full command 3 models.

 

[ManicMan]

Champion doesn't automatically take over as a leader.

so.. you buy a unit of 9 beastmen, You decide to pay double to turn one into a Standard bearer and one into a musician. the Champion is a character who you can Assign to be in that unit, putting them to the 10 mark. Standard bearers and Musicians aren't treated as charaters. Heroes, Champsions, Wizards are characters. the Leader is just one figure in the unit that looks the part. BUT you can.

if you do Choose the champ to the be the leader, you basically need to replace the model that looks like a leader with a more normal looking figure so he doesn't stand out.

However! you can have a Character who is the ARMY standard, not the unit standard. This is a character.

I don't think a character can be a musican, so 3 of the four can be used as independant characters if wanted, however, you can use all 4 in a unit if the champion is just assigned to the group and NOT the leader.

I think beastmen need to be atleast a unit of 10 but yes, no extra points or anything for a leader. Just looks different and called a leader. Champions are Optional characters which cost more and have different rules. They can be assigned to a unit, OR on their own OR can be assigned to a unit as the Leader of said unit. Standard bearers and Musicans are also optional but do cost more.

 

[PlainsWorld90]

In warhammer armies 3rd that is true, however if we are using ROC STD/LATD it's not the case.

This is part of the confusion as well btw which both books ARE part of FB3 specifically ( and RT secondly ), in the ROC books for example GOD SPECIFIC units ( almost ALL of them in fact ) have to be taken in units of 8 6 7 or 9, depending which chaos patron it is. Not only that specific patrons have units unique to them.

Khorne can take chaos dwarves and these yes are units of 8, beastmen too. Slaanesh can actually take both dark elf warriors and units of witch elves and as you guessed it yes 6 man units, the only other option they give is multiples of those numbers. 16 for khorne 12 for slaanesh etc or beyond that up to the maximum limit I think it's 30 or 32 beastmen for one of them.

Even more interesting is that some of these units have "can take a magic standard or musician for x cost" yet they have no option for taking champions as part of that, although technically speaking the champion section tells you how many you can buy for your army and then put them into those units.

To make matters even more confusing, the lost and the damned changes things up even more ( although technically more for RT than FB ), which actually introduced rules for essentially beastmen armies or even dragon ogres and centaurs etc, and since it focuses on both nurgle and tzeentch...and while you can use those lists ( because they have some minor khorne and slaanesh stuff in that section ) it acts almost like a tag on book while also having specific rules in slaves to darkness at the same time.

One example ( I know this is FB ) in STD khorne and slaanesh marine legions take units in 6 or 8, in latd nurgle and tzeentch marines are actually units of 5, with no actual champion in them ( for armies not for warbands ), even weirder ( they claim due to legion tradition ) terminators in both books have to be units of 5 not their god specific number even though normal chaos marines have to be god specific number haha.

The whole W Armies with ROC gets a bit weird in this department, because for example in warhammer armies which I think might have come out BEFORE STD did or around the same time the units are dif since chaos was not fleshed out how they are in both ROC books.

However due to 3FB main rules you can see how this gets kinda weird with leaders champs and so on. I'm not sure if there was any faq or Q&A back in the day for armies and roc books. It's one of those oldhammer situations that are unique, and why I kinda lean towards some of 4th and onwards for this, I may not like the dumbing down of things but certain little areas like this were 100% clear how it all works.

Not that I am any kind of rules lawyer and am against all that, totally into the fun spirit of things but situations like this create a um how do I exactly go about building a legal ROC army with unit champs and leaders etc

 

[ManicMan]

Basically, Rules in things like the Realms of Chaos books, are then expanded and added bits.. Really, they take over but like i've said, I don't have the Realms of Chaos (Chaos being in ordered units? never really appealed me to.. Chaos is meant to be chaotic..)

I know there are some people here with the Realms of Chaos books so, maybe that can help a bit more ^_^

 

[Zhu Bajie]

However due to 3FB main rules you can see how this gets kinda weird with leaders champs and so on.

You either attach a Character to the unit, and it becomes their defacto-Leader, or you count one of the rank-and-file as a Leader, same as normal. Characters don't add to the units total in RoC (p. 201) and the 'leader' role isn't tied to a specific model. As an example:

So you've 8 beastmen models, paint one bright orange cos he's going to represent the Leader and the other 7 grey.
You get Slammbo and he's your Chaos Champion, and you decide that he hangs around with your 8 beastmen (1 orange, 7 grey) and acts as their leader, gives them an Ld bonus and whatnot. There are 9 models in the unit. Orange guy is a bit narked, because he wanted to be leader, but he respects (lives in fear of) Slammbo, so it's OK.

Slammbo gets murdered by Skrag the Slaughterer. Oh no!
Now you've got a unit of 8 beastmen, 7 grey, one orange, and the orange one is now the leader, 'cos he's orange, and he's happy about being the boss, but misses Slambos ability to keep everyone in line.