WFB3: Chaos Dwarfs army list

Dreamfish

Dreamfish

Vassal
Recently I played a couple of games against a 4th/5th edition Chaos Dwarf player using WFB3 rules. I had to convert the 4th/5th edition CD units to be compatible with 3rd edtion. The majority of CD profiles are more or less available, but scattered throughout the various books. Being the author of the WFB3 Army Builder data files I thought to expand the data files with a compatible 3rd edition Chaos Dwarf army list.

I'll try to use as much as existing material possible from the 3rd edition rules books and supplement it with the 4th/5th edition Chaos Dwarf army book. I'll use the WFB3 point system to recalculate all point values and discard all the special 4th/5th edition rules and replace them with normal WFB3 bestiary rules.

This post will serve as a place to discuss various issues I might encounter during the project.

I started with the Boar-Centaur.

A basic Boar-Centaur profile is first mentioned in Warhammer Armies, p. 22.

 MWSBSSTWIALdIntClWPPV
Centaur83443232777730

 MWSBSSTWIALdIntClWPPV
Boar-Centaur74334222979934

 MWSBSSTWIALdIntClWPPV
Dwarf3433412197998

 MWSBSSTWIALdIntClWPPV
Boar7303313134446


As you can see the profile is a combination between a Dwarf and Boar. I believe the points value is calculated using a basic centaur profile with a +4 point difference, hence the 34 point value for a boar-centaur.

WA, p. 22 also mentions "To date, none have been permitted to rise to the status of 'character', and their role has been limited to that of 'power-unit' for the Chaos Dwarf war machines.". We need character profiles for the CD army list.

Both Centaur and Dwarf character profiles use a profile 1 character advancement. I used the same advancement for the boar-centaur. Below the profiles of the boar-centaur.

 MWSBSSTWIALdIntClWPPV
Boar-Centaur74334222979934

 MWSBSSTWIALdIntClWPPV
5 Hero01110011000084

 MWSBSSTWIALdIntClWPPV
10 Hero021111121000134

 MWSBSSTWIALdIntClWPPV
15 Hero021112222011184

 MWSBSSTWIALdIntClWPPV
20 Hero031113333011234

 MWSBSSTWIALdIntClWPPV
25 hero032113333222284
 
Fantastically useful stuff here DF. I've been dreaming of a more complete Chaos Dwarf Army list for 3rd ed for awhile now so I'm interested to see where this leads you. I've always been disappointed that there were no elite troops in the CD list for 3rd ed....the Vanilla dwarfs have a ton of options....as do Chaos humans...I feel the same should be available for CDs.

Thanks for tackling this!

Cheers,

Blue
 
Cheers Blue and thanks for the support.

I'm not sure about Elite troops. The units in the 4th/5th CD army book aren't that exotic. To introduce elite troops means inventing your own. I got some ideas about this, but it falls outside the scope of this topic.

The port however went faster than expected. I just finished porting the complete CD army list to a compatible 3rd edition list. Except for the Lammasu and Great Taurus, all units had existing 3rd edition profiles and where easily ported. I only had to create profiles for the Lammasu and Great Taurus. More on this later.

Except for the points and profiles I tried to use the same army list restrictions as mentioned in the CD army list.

Below a quick rundown of the 3rd edition CD army list restrictions.

Chaos Dwarfs

Alignment:
  • Evil
  • Chaotic
Psychology:
  • Hobgoblins are subject to frenzy
Chaos Attributes:
  • Chaos Dwarf characters have D6-4 personal attributes
Army selection
  • Rank & File (25%)
  • Characters (50%)
  • Allies (25%)
  • Mercenaries (25%)
  • Hosts (25%)
Close Combat Weapons:
  • Additional Hand Weapon
  • Double-handed weapon
  • Flail
  • Halberd
  • Spear
Missile Weapons:
  • Short Bow (***)
  • Bow (***)
  • Long Bow (****)
  • Crossbow (****)
  • Javelin (***)
  • Sling (***)
  • Arquebus (*)
  • Blunderbuss (*)
  • Pistol (*)
Armour:
  • Shield
  • Light Armour
  • Heavy Armour
  • Barding for Boar Centaurs
Riding Animals:
  • Giant Wolf (**)
War Beasts:
  • Chimera
  • Dragon (1/6)
  • Giant Spider
  • Great Taurus (*)
  • Griffon
  • Hippogriff
  • Lammasu (*)
  • Manticore
  • Wyvern
Heros:
  • Chaos Dwarf
  • Boar Centaur
  • Hobgoblin
Wizards:
  • Chaos Dwarf (Daemonic or Necromantic)
Champions:
  • Chaos Dwarf
  • Boar Centaur
  • Hobgoblin
  • Black Orc
  • Orc
  • Goblin
Magic Items:
  • Characters can have 1 magic weapon with one attribute per every 5 levels
  • Characters can have any kind of magic missiles
  • Wizards can have max 3 scrolls with level 3 or lower spells
  • 4 characters can wear rings with level 3 or lower spells
  • 3 characters can wear magic armour
  • Army standard can have 2 magic abbilities
Rank & File:
  • Chaos Dwarf Warriors
  • Chaos Dwarf Blunderbusses
  • Hobgoblins Warriors
  • Hobgoblins Archers
  • Hobgoblin Sneaky Gits
  • Hobgoblin Wolf Riders
  • Boar Centaurs
  • Black Orcs
  • Orcs
  • Goblins
War Machines:
  • Hobgoblin Bolt Thrower (3-Man Bolt Thrower)
  • Death Rocket (Chaos Dwarf Bazuka Team)
  • Earthshaker (3-Man Cannon)
Skirmishers:
  • Hobgoblin Wolf Riders (if armed with short bows)
Allies:
  • Chaos
  • Orcs & Goblins
Mercenaries:
  • Hobgoblins
  • Orcs
Monstrous Host:
  • Dragon (1/6)
  • Giant Scorpion
  • Giant Spider
  • Swarm (Bats, Frogs, Ground Insects, Lizards, Rats, Scorpions, Serpents)
Chaotic Host:
  • Chimera
  • Cockatrice
  • Griffon
  • Hipogriff
  • Hydra
  • Manticore
  • Wyvern

(*) Only Chaos Dwarfs
(**) Only Hobgoblins
(***) Not Chaos Dwarfs and Boar Centaurs
(****) Not Chaos Dwarfs, Boar Centaurs and Hobgoblins

Here you can download an 3rd edition example of Lord Bzaark's Chaos Dwarf army as published in the 4th/5th edition Chaos Dwarf army book.
 
Nice project, and a good rationale on the work so far.

Dreamfish":3ggla7hx said:
... the profile is a combination between a Dwarf and Boar. I believe the points value is calculated using a basic centaur profile with a +4 point difference, hence the 34 point value for a boar-centaur.
Click to expand...

Dwarf-Boar Centaurs are 34PV by the 2nd edition PV calculator. Human-horse Centaurs are 32PV.
 
I based the 3rd edition Great Taurus and Lammasu profile on the following conclusions.

The 4th/5th edition profile of the Great Taurus is somewhat similar in point value and profile to that of the Griffon and Manticore. Therefore I used the 3rd edition Griffon and Manticore profiles as a base for creating the 3rd edition Great Taurus profile.

 MWSBSSTWIALdIntClWPPV
Griffon 4th-5th ed.650655748000150

Abilities: Terror, Fly
 MWSBSSTWIALdIntClWPPV
Griffon 3rd ed.640444647477200

Abilities: Fear+1, Flyer (min 6", max 24", acc./dec. 6"), Enemy Save -3

 MWSBSSTWIALdIntClWPPV
Manticore 4th-5th ed.660775448000200

Abilities: Terror, Fly,
 MWSBSSTWIALdIntClWPPV
Manticore 3rd ed.550556347477250

Abilities: Fear+1, Flyer (min 6", max 24", acc./dec. 6"), Enemy Save -3, Poisoned Attacks

When comparing the Griffon and Manticore profiles of both editions, both profiles differ 7 stat values and 50 pts. I used this difference and subtracted them from the Taurus profile to create the 3rd edition profile. Furthermore I added 25 pts to bring the point values in line with the Manticore point value and replaced the Poisoned Attacks with the Breath Fire ability. I removed the Fiery Skin ability, because non of the monsters in 3rd edition have such saving throws.

 MWSBSSTWIALdIntClWPPV
Great Taurus 4th-5th ed.660665748000225

Abilities: Terror, Fly, Fiery Breath, Fiery Skin
 MWSBSSTWIALdIntClWPPV
Great Taurus 3rd ed.550556447477250

Abilities: Fear+1, Flyer (min 6", max 24", acc./dec. 6"), Enemy Save -3, Breath Fire

The extra 25 pts in comparison with the manticore count for the extra stat point and Fire breath ability.

I did the same with the Lammasu profile but gave it the Immune to Magic ability which resembles the Sorcerous Exhalation nicely. The 4th/5th edition profile has more thoughness and lower attacks, which feels strange, because of the maced tail. I decided to keep the attacks and thoughness, but make it slower.

 MWSBSSTWIALdIntClWPPV
Lammasu 4th-5th ed.660675638000200

Abilities: Terror, Fly, Fiery Breath, Sorcerous Exhalation
 MWSBSSTWIALdIntClWPPV
Lammasu 3rd ed.550565347477225

Abilities: Fear+1, Flyer (min 6", max 24", acc./dec. 6"), Enemy Save -3, Immune to Magic
 
Zhu Bajie":1sloeuu4 said:
Nice project, and a good rationale on the work so far.

Dreamfish":1sloeuu4 said:
... the profile is a combination between a Dwarf and Boar. I believe the points value is calculated using a basic centaur profile with a +4 point difference, hence the 34 point value for a boar-centaur.
Click to expand...

Dwarf-Boar Centaurs are 34PV by the 2nd edition PV calculator. Human-horse Centaurs are 32PV.
Click to expand...

I just found your post again about the 2nd point calculator. I've been playing around with it trying to recalculate some of the 2nd edition profiles. Normal troops seem consistent with the PV system, but I can't put my finger on the monster point value calculations. The Manticore or Chimera for example. The Manticore 248.75 pts using the PV system, instead of 324 pts and a Chimera 334.5 pts, instead of 462 pts. Any ideas where these points are coming from?

I like the 2nd edition point value system, but I think the advancement in stat values is too linear. Might be interesting to put some kind of exponential function on each stat as they become higher than normal. A superhuman having a strength of 8 costs 5 pts extra, while in gaming terms there's a big difference in having 3 or 8 strength. The Ugezod factor solves part of the problem, but useally only starts kicking in when wounds or attacks are added.

Below some of the monsters from various editions and their calucalted point values. It feels like there's no coherend system behind these point values.

profiles.png
 
Dreamfish":32bc5tkd said:
The Manticore or Chimera for example. The Manticore 248.75 pts using the PV system, instead of 324 pts and a Chimera 334.5 pts, instead of 462 pts. Any ideas where these points are coming from?
Click to expand...



If there is rhyme or reason to it, I can't fathom it - there's no correlation between special rules or attributes and the difference I can see.

I'm pretty sure several of them are human error (2nd ed has quite a few typos :)). Looking at Hydra, Manticore, Jabberwock which appear in that order - the published values are 342, 324 and 324 respectively. By calculation Jabberwock is 100% correct, the others look like the numbers have been incorrectly copied out into the rulebook. If the 'mythical beasts' were initially grouped together, then Chimera being in the same range could account for that. It could have been an intentional decision to make those similar sized creatures be in a similar range regardless.

The Ugezod factor gives a lot of wiggle room for divergent statlines giving the same PV, it's often possible to shift stats up and down without creating an effect in the PV once a beast gets large enough. W and A are the highest valued, because it's effectively the same as adding another troop in the same space - everything else is stacked proportionally to that.

Something interesting is your 3rd ed Taurus and Lammasu are overcosted in the same way as most of the other 3rd ed beasts (around 30-75 points), so the costs do look reasonable.
 

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Temping idea to just start afresh and create the whole army book in a structured manner, using a system that actually makes sense. Maybe some other day...

I just published version 2.5 of the AB files. It contains the Chaos Dwarf army list and some new compatible High Elf units listed in the Compatibility Mode blog post published by Grim Legatus on his blog A Madman's Wargame Ramblings.

I also added one line summery descriptions for all spells for easy reference.

See this post for the details.
 
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