WFB 3rd Edition - Frenzy

[MichaelStockin]

It sucks?

I mean my Empire Fleglers occasionally frenzy, having to roll 8+ on 2d6.
But my wifes Witch Elves having to roll 10+ (over their CL of 9) to enter frenzy is crap.

What do you all think?

 

[annagul]

Remember you always have the option to join a character to that unit and that character can use their CL bonus and add or deduct it to the roll.

 

[MichaelStockin]

Remember you always have the option to join a character to that unit and that character can use their CL bonus and add or deduct it to the roll.

True but even so...

 

[Zhu Bajie]

I think I prefer 2nd Editions Frenzy rules to be honest. It has more of a handicap and seems to emulate Anglo-Saxons going battle crazy at Hastings and similar - forced charges, failing to contact and routing are all the costs paid for getting the combat bonuses, but still drive narrative events of the battle and give strategic choices (trying to control the unruly sods!). In 3rd it seems like there's no downsides to Frenzy, which make it less interesting.

There's no cost to Frenzy, so you're not losing any opportunities by taking Witch elves over Warriors apart from the save pip from shields. Anyhow, if you want to go Frenzy, seems like problem is that the cold, aloof Elves have such a high Cool, and will only go into Frenzy about 30% of the time wheras the humans 70%). A leader model can whip them into a frenzy by adding their bonus to the die roll rather than the stat, a magic ring can have 'cause frenzy' embedded on it (but then using it on hardier troops might more sense).

Alternatively use a tactical ploy - have your Warriors engage a unit, and have the Witches repeatedly charging then withdrawing from combat against the same unit - each charge gets 30% of going into Frenzy, and the high Leadership makes it unlikely they'd rout.

 

[MichaelStockin]

I think I prefer 2nd Editions Frenzy rules to be honest. It has more of a handicap and seems to emulate Anglo-Saxons going battle crazy at Hastings and similar - forced charges, failing to contact and routing are all the costs paid for getting the combat bonuses, but still drive narrative events of the battle and give strategic choices (trying to control the unruly sods!). In 3rd it seems like there's no downsides to Frenzy, which make it less interesting.

There's no cost to Frenzy, so you're not losing any opportunities by taking Witch elves over Warriors apart from the save pip from shields. Anyhow, if you want to go Frenzy, seems like problem is that the cold, aloof Elves have such a high Cool, and will only go into Frenzy about 30% of the time wheras the humans 70%). A leader model can whip them into a frenzy by adding their bonus to the die roll rather than the stat, a magic ring can have 'cause frenzy' embedded on it (but then using it on hardier troops might more sense).

Alternatively use a tactical ploy - have your Warriors engage a unit, and have the Witches repeatedly charging then withdrawing from combat against the same unit - each charge gets 30% of going into Frenzy, and the high Leadership makes it unlikely they'd rout.

Isn't the chance of getting 8+ on 2d6 41.66% rather than 70%?
Not sure the humans have a 70% chance when they need to roll higher than 7 on 2d6?

Likewise Elves with a CL of 9 need 10+ on 2d6 which is 16.66%?

-----

That aside, the lore of with elves suggests they are mad for a bit of blood frenzy, but the mechanics make it quite hard.
I mean:


Witch Elves, also known as the Brides of Khaine, are the cruellest of all their heartless race, for they live only to serve Khaine's malevolent demands for bloody, agonising sacrifice. Their observances to the Lord of Murder are blood-slicked affairs. Still-beating hearts are ripped from victims' chests and hurled into fires, writhing flesh is daubed with gore-red runes and altars are decorated with the entrails of dying captives. Yet ceremonies are but a part of the Witch Elves' worship -- their truest observances take place upon the field of battle.

and

Witch Elves are the most bloodthirsty of the Dark Elves, and are no less vicious in battle than they are elsewhere. They do not carry shields, caring nothing for their own protection, and are armed with sharp swords and long knives whose edges are dipped in venom. On the eve of war, Witch Elves drink blood laced with poisonous herbs, driving them into a divine frenzy. Whilst in this god-touched state, the Witch Elves (already foregoing shields) give no thought to their own defence, and seek only to hack foes apart in a blood-drenched orgy of slaughter.

Once battle begins, the Witch Elves hurl themselves at their foes, ripping apart their enemies with a storm of poisoned blades. There is little grace to such an assault, merely a whirling flurry of venom-coated blades that slash at the foe with maddened fury. Those foes unfortunate enough to not succumb to their wound are rounded up by the Witch Elves after the battle to serve as gruesome sacrifices. Those enemies unfortunate enough to survive their wounds are rounded up by the Witch Elves at the battle's end. These poor souls are torn apart in wild victory celebrations as gruesome sacrifices, their blood offered in libation to the ever-thirsting Lord of Murder.


Given we have magical beasts and spells dripping out of our bum holes, some frenzy troops being likely to go frenzied seems like a reasonable request?

There is I think a downside, the frenzied unit is likely to win in HTH given the bonuses and thus there is a good chance they will follow the routing unit off the table?

 

[Zhu Bajie]

Regards the background - at publication of 3rd edition the Witch Elves are more the chainmail coat wearing treacherous matriarchal elite than the crazed bikini, kinky-boot wearing dominatrixes we see later and probably informed those texts?

There is an article just after 3rd in White Dwarf 108, The Witch Elves of Naggaroth by Richard Halliwell where the Witch Elves are defeated by not waiting for the rest of the army to turn up, then regroup and then are basically used to pin a unit in place while Cold One Riders flank and defeat the enemy. Talks about blood lust a bit, but they're not complete raving psychos.

Oh yes, you're correct on the percentages. I thought it was stat or over, not just over, then rounded wrong as well. Doh!

I don't think there's anything wrong in just changing the statline if you want them to Frenzy, if that's your image of them, but they'd be less controllable against elven forces. Ironically they'd be a tiny bit cheaper, but really it's an opportunity to play tactically in a hit-and-run, dancing over the tabletop, way that works best.

 

[MichaelStockin]

Regards the background - at publication of 3rd edition the Witch Elves are more the chainmail coat wearing treacherous matriarchal elite than the crazed bikini, kinky-boot wearing dominatrixes we see later and probably informed those texts?

.

That is fair.
Though my current approach is to use mainly 3rd edition rules (as that is what I have) but with the world as it was later.
As you note, the world of 3rd edition is only really just starting to find its flavour, which is fine, but the later flavour adds more, well flavour?!

 

[Zhu Bajie]

Regards the background - at publication of 3rd edition the Witch Elves are more the chainmail coat wearing treacherous matriarchal elite than the crazed bikini, kinky-boot wearing dominatrixes we see later and probably informed those texts?

.

That is fair.
Though my current approach is to use mainly 3rd edition rules (as that is what I have) but with the world as it was later.
As you note, the world of 3rd edition is only really just starting to find its flavour, which is fine, but the later flavour adds more, well flavour?!

Yes, likely to run into a few different things tying to backport newhammer into oldhammer, Chaos Dwarfs, Amazons, Hobgoblins, Slann, all really quite different concepts to what came later. I think 2/3E already has plenty of flavour, and personally rather prefered the original, sensibly armoured matriarchal Witch Elves that had been around since 1e and provided a welcome contrast to the sexualised female Drow of D&D that Warhammer ended up copying, but thats just a matter of taste, not a problem with the game.

If you're looking at designing your own Witch Elf rules to reflect the later concept, maybe drop the armour (save one point) and reduce Cl to 7 (which, after rounding drops another point). Alternatively maybe play them as Wardancers, with suitably renamed special moves?

 

[MichaelStockin]

I think I will just use the 4th edition frenzy rules.
A nice simple solution.

 

[Zhu Bajie]

I think I will just use the 4th edition frenzy rules.
A nice simple solution.

Just test on Ld if you don't want to Frenzy? seems a bit predictable and puts too much control in the players hands, seems a bit bland and flavourless to me

 

[MichaelStockin]

I think I will just use the 4th edition frenzy rules.
A nice simple solution.

Just test on Ld if you don't want to Frenzy? seems a bit predictable and puts too much control in the players hands, seems a bit bland and flavourless to me

Then I recommend you don't do that in your games.

 

[Zhu Bajie]

I think I will just use the 4th edition frenzy rules.
A nice simple solution.

Just test on Ld if you don't want to Frenzy? seems a bit predictable and puts too much control in the players hands, seems a bit bland and flavourless to me

Then I recommend you don't do that in your games.

Yeah definitely not my cup of tea, I think the idea of leaders whipping into Frenzy, using mutlipe hit-and-run charges tactically to drive troops into an attack mania, creates a much stronger narrative on the tabletop and reflects the background than the idea of an always-overpowered unit whose leaders saying "keep calm girls" to stop them going into Frenzy with zero downsides. Like most game design issues it's just a matter of taste and expectation rather than right or wrong.