WFB 3 & 4 - Standard Amounts

ManicMan

ManicMan

Lord
Okay, I wanna ask about Standards, and Standard Bearers, mostly about the number of them. Normally, you think about 1 Standard in a unit, but if you look in history it does seam that sometimes, there has been more then one person carrying a standard into battle. I started to look at the 'staged' battle shots in 'eavy metal images and found a couple which do show units with 2 Standards.

I checked the rules in WFB3 and WFB4. 3ed says:

A unit does not have to have standard bearers, drummers, horn blowers or other musicians, but players may include them if they wish
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Page 77 Rule book.

So that doesn't say a number, and the rest of the section just deals with what standards do, combat, losing them etc. Nothing on numbers, and the term 'standard bearers' with the S kinda hints maybe more then one? but it might be ... erm.. whatever the term is for saying a plural when you don't mean more then one..

4ed says pretty much the same but splits up musicians and standards more and rewords things to say:
A unit of troops may carry a standard which might take the form of a flag, banner, totemic idol, or similar device
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Page 82 Rule Book

This way seams to more hint 1 per unit, but the wording in the rule books is always a bit iffy in the way that it says a standard bearer is usually placed in the middle of the front rank and this isn't a rule, yet for Musicians it says they ARE placed in the middle of the front rank when I think it is kinda the same thing of doesn't HAVE to but usually is. (also, if you follow all the things.. you have a leader who is also a champion with a musical instrument in one hand and a standard in the other in order to have them all in the middle of the front rank.. And woe betide people who use an even number in each rank.. there is no middle ¬_¬;

So other then the 'whatever you feel like and your opponent agrees with', any one got any clues on the 'official' statement at the time for 3ed &/|| 4ed on number of Standards per unit? I guess a secondary issue would be how they would work.. would you get a bonus for EACH standard? or would it just work as if you had one (apart from when it came to losing them cause losing one standard but you got a spare isn't a major issue ^_^) I think a 20 man unit each with a standard might be .. well, cool looking but kinda against the spirit of things if you get a bonus for each one.
 
For 3rd edition:

Each unit has a leader which goes in the centre of the front rank.
If the rank has an even number of models the leader goes in one of the two centre positions.

Standards grant +1 to the combat resolution result.
An Army standard grants and extra +1.

So if your unit has the army standard then +2 rather than +1.

The army standard may only be carried by a character model.
Magical standards may only be carried by a character model.

Given that leaders must be in the middle, I place my standards on the edge.
This is not required but it does mean that if they are a bit big, or lean or take up extra room then it does not matter as there is plenty of space.

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Warhammer Armies dictates which units may have magical standards.

On page 77 it does say that a unit with a standard in its front rank may add +1...
It does say with a standard, not with multiple standards.
It does say a standard, not per standard.
I am not convinced that multiple standards per unit is a thing.

It does not explicitly say only 1 per unit, and you could within the read as written have a normal standard and an army standard in the same unit, which seems fair.
However I think anyone having multiple normal standards in one unit is not only being a bit gamey but also taking a risk in terms of the problems when you lose one.
 
Id places any additional flags in the rear ranks, and the flag in the first rank is the one that matters. My headcannon is the main flag is the unit banner and the lesser ones are from local groups in the regiment, like the bakers lane boys, dock road bros, pig poop bruisers.
 
It says a units standard is also a focal point..
A focal point, hard to have a focal point with multiple standards.

It does also say the loss of a units standard.
It does not say the loss of one of the units standards.

(page 77)

It does talk a lot about a and the (singular), not one of...
 
Orc unit with 2 Standards though some of this 3ed unit shows are.. tricky to be a valid unit
Orc1.jpg

Skaven Stormvermin unit with 2 standards
Skaven1.jpg

B&W ... I think orc unit, with 2 standards
B&WOrc.jpg

When it comes to focal point.. kinda depends on how you interpret that as a focal point can be more then one thing.. it's.. tricky

The more I look at the books, the more they seam to allow more then one standard, but it's trick how they define them and the rules appear to be worded with either careful wiggle room, or unthinking carelessness. If that's the best way to word that ^_^;
 
I think there's a big distinction between a unit having numerous flags/banners/back banners for aesthetics and having more than one for the rules. The former, absolutely, crack on and make the units look amazing - as for the later it's only one standard (or two if you include the army standard). I hate the grammar debates but Warhammer armies 3rd is really clear 'any unit may be given a unit standard bearer and/or a musician.' Both are in the singular and the line is repeated in every army list.

As for the examples.
The unit list entry on that page states the unit only has one standard - I guess Kev Adams couldn't resist sneaking in his best figures and who could blame him?
A can't remember the white dwarf but I'd bet the farm (that I don't have) on that unit being stormvermin with the army standard bearer.
And the bottom 'second' standard is a musician - the classic gong on a stick type.
Hope that helps and I'm totally for multiple standards as they look cool, just pick one to be the 'proper' one if you're using it in a game.
 
mm.. looks like a slight change of wording in Armies, which makes sense. Well, more putting a bit more effort into the wording ^_^

and yeah, might be more a musican.. but then if you look at some of the figures.. the difference between things is vague.. is it a Totem? is it a Standard? is it just a stick with a banner? answers on a post card please.

Oh and the Skaven one is probebly from an issue of white dwarf as well, but I took it from the 4ed Skaven Army Book. What would be interesting is that big one is a Stormvermin design, so the Army standard... is smaller? poor army standard that ^_^
 
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