ManicMan
Lord
Yep, I'm trying for what I think is probably the most pointless discussion which can in fact Be a discussion, this year.
I don't know much about 1st edition so I'll start with 2ed Warhammer Fantasy Battle and then go 3ed as they are then the only two which matter.
What is the question/point of Discussion? the Order of Armies in the Army Lists.
For 2ed, the Army List Book was Ravening Hordes in 1987. When we look at the Army List in the contents we have this order for the main armies:
* Orcs and Goblins
* Undead
* Dark Elves
* Skaven
* Chaos
* Nippon
* Norse
* Empire
* Dwarfs
* Elves
I'll ignore talk on which armies are covered and which ones seam completely missing for this discussion but we notice.. there is no real order here. Alphabet doesn't go that way. There is SOME order, but it's pretty week in my view. We start with 'Monsters' as traditionally seen with Orcs and Goblins, Undead, Dark Elves (kinda), Skaven, Chaos all being first, then we have Human with Nippon, Norse and Empire, then we have what is often classed as semi-human with the Dwarfs and Elves. We could debate the Dark Elves placement as they are just elves turned to chaos. Which brings up another issue. Chaos is at the end of the Monsters group, yet both Dark Elves and Skaven are sub-chaos groupings if you want to catalogue them. Dark Elves are Elves which gave in to start worshiping Khaine (who is technically Khorne but don't tell them that, they will fight you for it.. I believe FAR later in 6+ they had other Gods too, but.. too modern for me) and of course, the Skaven are Chaotic Mutant Ratmen who go on to worship the Chaos God 'The Horned Rat', So It would have made more sense to introduce Chaos before you are doing the spin-off groups. It would be almost like if you followed Hollywood's example of often making a film based on Book 2 or a series before going back and doing the first one. Pretty stupid and pointless on the whole.
So lets look at another way it might be ordered.. Is it by Alignment? this was more important in early days, I feel, then later. Well, tough luck, they didn't really HAVE alignment until 3ed, So there goes that idea.
So we have a very vague ordering but not really much. If we look at the Allies lists and the Mercenaries, we find they are both in Alphabetic order. Huh.
We now move forward in time as the page of history turns (page of history turning... damn, what is that from?)
Warhammer Armies was the Army list for 3ed and was much expanded compared to the first, though a number of groups were either removed or reduced. The Contents page is a bit less arranged for easy viewing as instead of sub-heading the 3 list types (armies, Allies and Mercenaries) they are all as one list, though they do put them in a rough grouping. Just not as easy to make out clearly (though I might add, all Army Lists are in column one, with Allies and Mercenaries in Column too.. though that is under a 'Mercenaries & Allies' entry, despite it being listed in the other order). But lets look at the ordering here.
* Dark Elves
* Wood Elves
* High Elves
* The Empire
* Bretonnia
* Chaos
* Skaven
* Orcs
* Dwarfs
* Slann
* Undead
now.. at first impression, this is very better ordered but closer look.. get a bit more confusing. We start off with the 3 main Elf types, as they are now split that way (Sea Elves start to get really downplayed more then before and are now part of the High Elves), followed by the Empire.. so that would be Alphabetal (Elves, Dark etc) But then after the Empire we have.. Bretonnia.. a B.. which is before E.. yikes.. Okay.. maybe we are still doing the 'Monsters vs Humans' type ordering? well, they have classed Dark Elves as a semi-human race with the other elves, but Dwarfs are FAR down the list, between the Orcs and Slann.. so there goes that idea. Chaos IS before some of the Chaos Spin-offs, or more, it's before the Skaven, but we still have the Dark Elves long before them. So really, this list makes even less order sense. But we now have an Alignment (or it could but I just couldn't find it in 2ed but... I did look). well.. It doesn't group them with that either.. Dark Elves are Evil/Chaotic where as Wood Elves are 'good'. So there isn't that ordering.. So we have.. even LESS of an order then we had in Ravening Hordes.
If we look at the Allies list, It's MOSTLY in alphabetical order.. Right until we get to Undead... following Undead, we have Halflings... right before the final entry of Zoats.. So.. a H between U and Z... the rest of them are in alphabetical order. The Mercenaries list, on the other hand, is in Alphabetical order with the H (Half orc and Hobgoblin) between Giants and Nippon.. Though we could argue that is Dark Elves and High Elves come under E for Elves, why is Half Orc under H for Half and not Orc? Hobgoblin makes sense as that is one word, but still)
When the move was made to 4ed, each army good there own book so the order doesn't really matter but there is a small basic list which is put in alphabetic order via the first word.. Kinda.. We have Dwarfs before Dark Elves. But on the whole, In order.
So... Does anyone have any clue what the ordering is meant to be in either 2ed or 3ed? it just looks weirdly random to me and makes... soo little sense...
I don't know much about 1st edition so I'll start with 2ed Warhammer Fantasy Battle and then go 3ed as they are then the only two which matter.
What is the question/point of Discussion? the Order of Armies in the Army Lists.
For 2ed, the Army List Book was Ravening Hordes in 1987. When we look at the Army List in the contents we have this order for the main armies:
* Orcs and Goblins
* Undead
* Dark Elves
* Skaven
* Chaos
* Nippon
* Norse
* Empire
* Dwarfs
* Elves
I'll ignore talk on which armies are covered and which ones seam completely missing for this discussion but we notice.. there is no real order here. Alphabet doesn't go that way. There is SOME order, but it's pretty week in my view. We start with 'Monsters' as traditionally seen with Orcs and Goblins, Undead, Dark Elves (kinda), Skaven, Chaos all being first, then we have Human with Nippon, Norse and Empire, then we have what is often classed as semi-human with the Dwarfs and Elves. We could debate the Dark Elves placement as they are just elves turned to chaos. Which brings up another issue. Chaos is at the end of the Monsters group, yet both Dark Elves and Skaven are sub-chaos groupings if you want to catalogue them. Dark Elves are Elves which gave in to start worshiping Khaine (who is technically Khorne but don't tell them that, they will fight you for it.. I believe FAR later in 6+ they had other Gods too, but.. too modern for me) and of course, the Skaven are Chaotic Mutant Ratmen who go on to worship the Chaos God 'The Horned Rat', So It would have made more sense to introduce Chaos before you are doing the spin-off groups. It would be almost like if you followed Hollywood's example of often making a film based on Book 2 or a series before going back and doing the first one. Pretty stupid and pointless on the whole.
So lets look at another way it might be ordered.. Is it by Alignment? this was more important in early days, I feel, then later. Well, tough luck, they didn't really HAVE alignment until 3ed, So there goes that idea.
So we have a very vague ordering but not really much. If we look at the Allies lists and the Mercenaries, we find they are both in Alphabetic order. Huh.
We now move forward in time as the page of history turns (page of history turning... damn, what is that from?)
Warhammer Armies was the Army list for 3ed and was much expanded compared to the first, though a number of groups were either removed or reduced. The Contents page is a bit less arranged for easy viewing as instead of sub-heading the 3 list types (armies, Allies and Mercenaries) they are all as one list, though they do put them in a rough grouping. Just not as easy to make out clearly (though I might add, all Army Lists are in column one, with Allies and Mercenaries in Column too.. though that is under a 'Mercenaries & Allies' entry, despite it being listed in the other order). But lets look at the ordering here.
* Dark Elves
* Wood Elves
* High Elves
* The Empire
* Bretonnia
* Chaos
* Skaven
* Orcs
* Dwarfs
* Slann
* Undead
now.. at first impression, this is very better ordered but closer look.. get a bit more confusing. We start off with the 3 main Elf types, as they are now split that way (Sea Elves start to get really downplayed more then before and are now part of the High Elves), followed by the Empire.. so that would be Alphabetal (Elves, Dark etc) But then after the Empire we have.. Bretonnia.. a B.. which is before E.. yikes.. Okay.. maybe we are still doing the 'Monsters vs Humans' type ordering? well, they have classed Dark Elves as a semi-human race with the other elves, but Dwarfs are FAR down the list, between the Orcs and Slann.. so there goes that idea. Chaos IS before some of the Chaos Spin-offs, or more, it's before the Skaven, but we still have the Dark Elves long before them. So really, this list makes even less order sense. But we now have an Alignment (or it could but I just couldn't find it in 2ed but... I did look). well.. It doesn't group them with that either.. Dark Elves are Evil/Chaotic where as Wood Elves are 'good'. So there isn't that ordering.. So we have.. even LESS of an order then we had in Ravening Hordes.
If we look at the Allies list, It's MOSTLY in alphabetical order.. Right until we get to Undead... following Undead, we have Halflings... right before the final entry of Zoats.. So.. a H between U and Z... the rest of them are in alphabetical order. The Mercenaries list, on the other hand, is in Alphabetical order with the H (Half orc and Hobgoblin) between Giants and Nippon.. Though we could argue that is Dark Elves and High Elves come under E for Elves, why is Half Orc under H for Half and not Orc? Hobgoblin makes sense as that is one word, but still)
When the move was made to 4ed, each army good there own book so the order doesn't really matter but there is a small basic list which is put in alphabetic order via the first word.. Kinda.. We have Dwarfs before Dark Elves. But on the whole, In order.
So... Does anyone have any clue what the ordering is meant to be in either 2ed or 3ed? it just looks weirdly random to me and makes... soo little sense...
