Use of "AI" in wargaming

Eric

Administrator
So having seen a few side mentions of "AI" in various threads both here and elsewhere I was wondering what the considerations were and if we should have a thread to ponder in. So I suppose both our real world large language models and their uses or curses in wargaming and indeed artificial intelligence's within the games themselves. I feel fairly sure there are rich pickings in-universe around the whole thinking machines stuff, which I seem to recall GW borrowed from Dune and popped into the Dark Age of Technology. Although I forget if there is a good summary of things in any of the books, I know it's touched upon in various places. You've got the whole bio-mechanical servitor area and indeed the machine-spirit stuff to add further avenues of discussion.

Anyhow I was going to move a few threads over into this one as a starting point, so to avoid breaking too much context to the first post I moved here is said context

We learnt A LOT (and it took a lot of time). WFB 3rd Ed is a learning curve. This time around we introduced champions, magic, and more powerful characters. Loads more complex.
All of this took a lot of time, head scratching and searching through a hooky PDF or two as well as an original hard cover book (cheers Dan)… A few things what we learnt…
  • Having a ref/GM is pretty useful – often we came to an ‘agreement’ because the rules aren’t always clear
  • Generally the ‘rule of cool’ should be used (if something looks cool, try and let it happen)
  • Objectives are really important – we remembered this over a fag break
  • ‘Fear’ is powerful – fearsome things following up make brave Bretts run away
  • It’s hard to hit things – 5’s on a D6 in this battle – remember your bonuses!
  • Armour matters – Bretts in heavy armour on mounts are basically tanks (2+ save)
  • Heroes do the business – When things get really grindy, a Lvl 20 Ogre helps
  • Instability isn’t always awful
  • Chat GPT isn't helpful
 
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why would you use some crap which just steals some data and makes up the rest while claiming its real? if you have a questions, ask a search engine or online, not some insulting crap detailed for tossers and thieves..
 
Hey Manic - I pretty much agree with your pov (my wife has lost work to it). But it is a useful tool - just not enough 3rd Ed stuff digitally available.
 
It's a gigo system. pure and simple. any company that is using such a thing (i'm not saying all neural network systems, they have been around since the 70s in publically accessable computering) but that one of note is a very nasty piece of work known for highly illigeal behaviour and there are still quite a number of lawsuits happening (but courts move slowly, though they are starting to get done.. and win cause there is no way that can lose with the cases they have) aren't a company that will last too long. look at Duolingo.. Look at WotC ^_^

There are plenty of places for 3ed rules and clearing it up and even a bit in the rule book on what to do if unsure (basically, page 35 under 'The Basgic Game - The Gamesmaster) but there are bits in other places too, like the follow up section 'Competitive and friendly games'.

Not being nasty to you and it seams good you didn't take it as I was ^_^ but some things are going badly cause people don't know how to use the right tool for the right job. While i'm not against using a coin as a screwdriver, using a hammer as a paintbrush is a completely different matter. Like I said, Gigo systems.. people who don't understand computers and what people call 'AI' but isn't (I got a great article on a basic system I got in the 90s when I was really obessived with how the systems work and creation of them, It was fun and it's good for certain things.. but trying to use it as a search engine? that's how come them two laywers got disbarred.. they said, under oath, they thought it was a search engine and not something that would mix stolen data with 'random made up stuff'. sigh.. people don't even know how to create inforcers when they made advanced game enemy paths these days... which is why SOO many game bugs where the enemy suddernly acts in a stupid random way.. You need to use inforcers and code it right, not just cut and paste random code together and hope it works..

Anyway.. Sorry for derailing a bit ^_^ I guess.. yeah.. one of them moods.. sorry
 
thinking machines were banned in the Dune peiord because people started to use them for their thinking and so-called 'creativeness' (which they can't have anyway). So there were huge wars and all thinking machines wiped out and various guilds were created to encourage thinking. the Main ones which are then in the books are the Spacing guild, the Mentat's and the Beni Jesuits.

also you can't use 'ai' for rule checking cause the rules aren't public domain. If they DO have the rule set added to their database, it is done illgeally and is copyright thief and piracy. as GW do at times show the odd re-issues of rule books (Realms of Chaos, Rogue Trader etc) and copyright is about 80 years or so, unless GW public domain them, it is illgeal and use of it does class as handling stolen goods due to the update in the law around the turn of the century to include copyright thieft as such a way (and one reason we don't post PDFS or direct links etc here)

And yep, moving is a good idea
 
I knowingly avoid AI for everything.
Doubly so for creative purposes.
I see people using it to write scenarios, knock up banners, make names for models, create lore and backstory, and create illustrations for their games.

I can see and acknowledge it has uses in a technical arena but for creative purposes the very thought of using AI to create art of any sort is abhorrent to me.

Art, be that illustrations, writing, music, ideas and concepts even, are what set us apart from the rest of life. I wonder why people would want to outsource to machines the very thing that makes us human.
 
I wonder why people would want to outsource to machines the very thing that makes us human.
Speed, cost, lack of creativity?

I try to avoid use of LLMs in day to day, but working at an admin job using a PC regularly I they are sneaking into systems I use…

I was kinda surprised by comments from some RPGers I a have met who state they use AI to draw up NPC images and maps on the fly for their games, but kinda see where they are coming from…
 
I think if an LLM is 'trained' on the right data inputs it's really quite useful.
I'd love a 3rd Ed searchable/askable resource - but the people that created it should be properly remunerated (if that makes sense?). Unfortunately the 'idea'/work is at the bottom of the pile in terms of paid-for value in lots of industries (and always has been)
 
I think if an LLM is 'trained' on the right data inputs it's really quite useful.
Although as I understand them it's still just an impressive prediction engine. It doesn't "know" the rules (for instance), it just an advanced version of the old Markov chain babblers. Or basic bayesian probability as we used for spam/ham detection in email for years. That said of course we could descend into the philosophical do our brains know things in a meaningfully different way? I do find it quite interesting that those that build these models don't fully understand them, possibly I also find that a little scary. The selling of them as intelligence is a bit of marketing really. Still I've clients who are using LLMs trained on some of their data sets and whilst we don't host the LLMs (no thanks to that power budget - yikes, let alone the cost of the GPUs) we do host the databases and vector indexes for the data. Those clients seem happy with the output, but I don't know how much has been done to validate that the output is truth in all cases rather than just something that sounds plausible - which is always the big risk.

I wonder why people would want to outsource to machines the very thing that makes us human.
If I wasn't being so creative all the time I'd be able to clean out the sewers and break rocks in the quarry all day! I guess a lot of that art generation research started out simply as machine vision - given the quantity of material thrown onto the Internet daily - checking it is almost impossible and machine vision is one way of denting that drudgery. Alas that has led to AI slop in the style of real creatives.

I was kinda surprised by comments from some RPGers I a have met who state they use AI to draw up NPC images and maps on the fly for their games, but kinda see where they are coming from…
Indeed. Lacking artistic skills myself I can certainly see the appeal and to be fair those "AI art" tools are getting better all the time. Even if you're not using them to generate entire works lots of creative tools are using them for things like background reconstruction and so forth. Latter uses like that I have considerable more sympathy for. The raw drawing, whilst impressive niggles at me from the use of real creativity as the training. I suppose you could argue that any human artist imbibes the art and creativity of those things they see through their lives so "is it any different"? I really hope so! Can you imagine a world where you have to sign a contract every time you want to look at a painting or something.

Great point on legality Manic.
Agreed. It's a very good point especially in this context.

I certainly wish I had a better understanding of LLMs under the hood, but it's not been something I've had much energy or time to really investigate. I've idly used a few from time to time, some out of curiosity to see what you can get them to spout and from time to time to see if I can figure out how you do something in a programming language I'm less familiar with. However that's not to use its output, more to see what it spits out and then use that to jump off on better constructed searches and hopefully lead to a solid answer. I have a colleague who does use it in a similar way, but in the marketing world. Alas I fear they are not going back in their boxes, but perhaps the AI bubble will burst, which will probably be rubbish for all our pensions, but then again perhaps better for humanity's, well humanity.
 
the Bubble is already busting and the lawsuits with some pretty big players.. I think one of the main writer law suits has people like steven king, who's work was copied without permission for 'training'., the artist side includes Disney in one of the things i'm agreeing with the company with..

If anyone here remembers back (and knows about it) I think it was just after the days of newsgroups and in the days of the early forums.. I can't remember who the companies were but was I think was to do with Netscape.. anyway, two forums. they had illgeal content. One kinda got away with it (though had to deal with stuff) because they DIDN'T have any mod controls and was open with that, therefore anything went. The other HAD mods. the one which had mods had to pay alot of money cause, as they had mods, they should have stopped the illgeal stuff. Part of the suit which Disney is one of the people in is to do with stealing stuff. a fake AI 'creates' a drawing by stitching by using preditice data with a model sheet of what it should look like. People are knocking off copyrighted characters in pretty damn close (but with alot of flaws) but close enough that is's copyright infringement. Disney says they should be able to put in stuff which when you type in "Draw Disney's Mickey mouse" it won't. They say they can't control it. Fine.. So the side said, so you can illgeal make child porn with it? "Oh no, we have filters to stop that".. so basically, they only mod stuff which they want controlled. And as there has already been presidence (erm.. can't spell the right word.. has already been tested and set up) before, it's pretty open and shut when they finally get through the system.

But the systems work pretty much like Predictice text on a phone. You set up a basic 'brain' structure and either feed it data manually, or let it 'try it'.. the try it doesn't work for typing or 'art'. in them, it has to copy and paste basically. A very simple way to show it is If you know about cryptography.

If you type 'th' what is the most common third letter? e. it's gonna be the word 'the'.. not always but most likely. a completely sealed system needs you to type that like that. Looking at what I've typed in this post alone, pretty much every time it have typed 'th' at the start of a word, it's followed by a e. so it would see the change of the third letter being a e is very high, and suggest that. If you agree, it gets reinforced so it'll automatically go for that option more. If the most common was the word 'that', it would instead suggest that. most phones seam to give a most common and the next two common.. for th.... mm.. The would be most common, then you would have words like than, that, this, these, those etc. It would record what you typed and in a database store the most common at any given point. Alot of cross references. After a while, it can also build up word groupings. the most common word after 'good' is probebly 'bye' so it will suggest 'good bye' when you start to type 'goo'. If you have a modern system, you can handle the processing of doings millions and millions of checks like that at one time and it'll learn more then just 2 word groups, but it can learn more and more to a stage where you can give a very basic line and it'll pump out the most common way of doing that. Once you have the core system and the interconnections, it can just add in it's own connections, like a normal brain (thus neutral network) to a degree that you can say 'write a story about a rat' and it'll be able to put out the most common 1000 words or more which happens to be the most common story about a rat.

Now, every time someone enters data in, it learns more, so the 'most common' changes. so you get a bit of varitation. Also, to give the false impression of 'creativing', you get it to every so often just randomly add something and pretend that was entered, thus you will get something different. However, often these random bits are what are called 'hicups' because it'll just not work at all as its' completely wrong. When you write a decent one, you put in inforcers to give more weight to the 'correct' path. Just like normal learning. You reward what's good, and punish what's bad.

Back in the fun days of A-life simulators (I really need to get back to my one I was toying away with) you pretty much want to create something that can pass a 'realistic'. In a basic way, you have a brain set up with 'needs'. For a basic life form you want to emulate, you have something like 'Hunger', 'Tireness', 'Cold' to give a couple of basics. The 'creature' then has a pleasure and pain variable. the more the hunger increases, the more the pain goes up. If the hunger goes down, the pain goes down and the pleasure goes up. There for, it learns that when it is hungery, it needs to decrease this value. You can then tell it what Food is. Give it an object you set as 'food'. IF it interacts with it in a way, we shall call 'eating', and that decreases the hunger, it'll start to learn what to do. It learns 'eat' 'Food' decrease 'hunger', increase pleasure. To give a real like brain system, you have it 'forget' things over time and randomly, so it'll need to eat food enough to keep remembering it what it does. You can also fake a life cycle where as it gets older, it forgets quicker.

That is very basic and I'm not advanced enough to go into the full full side, but that's basically it. It's pretty simple but when the first tries at the system were being done in the 60s (well, the first major one), it was found out that you just couldn't store enough data and process it well enough. The Human brain is of such size that.. well.. You just could't store it. When you think of how much space it takes up to store 1 letter. sure, you think "That's only 1 byte', Think. Back in about 1996, I got a amazingly large secondary harddrive. that was 6GB. the main drive was 1GB. 6GB.. that's 1024 Megabytes etc.

6gb is enough to store '6,442,450,944' characters.. sounds alot but the average number of characters on an A4 page is 1,800. so 6gb can store 3,579,139 pages of text. Though I'm not 100% sure if that includes spaces (ignore compression for a bit, that gets complex). Say the averge book has 300 pages. That works out to 11,930 books. Starts to look a bit small eh? In 1948, the first form of computer memory, as RAM was created. the Vacumm tubes could store 1024 bits of information. An audio cassette, like for a spectrum game, could store 135MB of data. In order to have the data storage and the processing power to well. process the amount of data needed for a complex system... well.. its why serious neutral network research didn't fully take off until the late 70s. At which time, it's predictive text gave us 'millennium shrimp and hand'. Such random word groups (yep, I take it most people know who got that data out of a system and used it).

anyway.. I think that's more than enough of the basics.. more advance stuff, you gonna need to really check some decent research papers and stuff which.. sad to say, some go over my head, others I just find really dull.. I prefer more abstract research papers.. more like Pseudo code cause they are FAR more useful in every day life. I wonder if they still teach people to pseudo code things first these days.. They should
 
It gets largely overlooked that 'AI' processes are exceptinally power intensive. The processors require a huge amount of filtered water to cool. That single iteration of a picture you want AI to make for you or that bit of text you're making AI pad your website out with? That's a bucket of water. That 30-second clip of your miniature 'walking'? The equivalent of running a microwave for an hour. In an age of climate crisis we need to be way more careful when we choose to waste resources. Flippant use of LLMs is unsustainable and environmentally catastrophic.
 
Quite. Crazy power consumption so, even the off the shelf air cooled units are very high draw. I was looking at SuperServer SYS-A22GA-NBRT for a client and that's a 10U air cooled beast with 6× 5KW power supplies, as a redundant design so a nominal potential draw of 15KW and granted it won't actually draw that much (many of my servers have 2× 700W PSUs but typically run at more like 200W with moderate loading). Still that's one power hungry beast that could need a 64Amp feed just for itself. There was a ServeTheHome video (and article) touring an AI datacentre not that long ago for the curious.

Thinking beyond just large language models what about other "AI" uses in gaming, we've seen various card and table based "AI" opponents in single player versions of games. I seem to recall Advanced Heroquest had a solo mode. Has anyone done computer based equivalents that span the gap between tabletop and digital I wonder? How practical might such a system be I wonder? You could of course automate the tracking of models with cameras. I'd much rather do a play-by-mail style game with a real friend than play games of Warhammer against a computer, but I'm curious if anyone does do that. Maybe top tournament players in the very un-oldhammer modern 40K scene?
 
It gets largely overlooked that 'AI' processes are exceptinally power intensive. The processors require a huge amount of filtered water to cool. That single iteration of a picture you want AI to make for you or that bit of text you're making AI pad your website out with? That's a bucket of water. That 30-second clip of your miniature 'walking'? The equivalent of running a microwave for an hour. In an age of climate crisis we need to be way more careful when we choose to waste resources. Flippant use of LLMs is unsustainable and environmentally catastrophic.

Same with file storage. So many devices and applications store things online. Phones these days with huge image sizes automatically backing them up to a one drive or some other site. Anything that I want to keep I stick on a thumb drive.
 
It gets largely overlooked that 'AI' processes are exceptinally power intensive. The processors require a huge amount of filtered water to cool. That single iteration of a picture you want AI to make for you or that bit of text you're making AI pad your website out with? That's a bucket of water. That 30-second clip of your miniature 'walking'? The equivalent of running a microwave for an hour. In an age of climate crisis we need to be way more careful when we choose to waste resources. Flippant use of LLMs is unsustainable and environmentally catastrophic.
But how else will we see videos of the Pope breakdancing or Kier Starmer dropping some UK grime?
 
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