Realm of .. confusion

[ManicMan]

Cause I'm a total idiot.. Kinda looking to do up a Demon Lord as a Patron from Realms of Chaos.. I'm kinda cheating a bit on with it.. just a bit ^_^ and some of the work is pre-done but... . I can't remember if ROC was kinda 2E or 3E and either way.. I don't enough to work out things like Points cost.. any one got much of a clue on using these? I'm trying to do up my armies for 3/4 rules as 4th I'm more familiar with.

 

[KingOfTheLeadPile]

ROC was 3e

Need to look up the specifics , but demons as patrons have their own section, should include points values

 

[ManicMan]

I knew it was the one or the other ^_^

I can see the points cost stuff for Nurgle and Tzeentch but.. It would be an independent demon prince If I follow this right, as it's a Champion who has risen to becoming an independent demon in his own right.. can't see the points for the demon itself.. (though has he full stats.. most of which.. yeah, can mostly just use the same stats ^_^)

 

[KingOfTheLeadPile]

"Becoming a Daemon", Slaves to Darkness, p. 53 details what happens when a champion becomes a Daemon prince as result of The Eye of God reward; but provides no points costs.

"Points Values and Followers of Chaos", StD p. 63; more specifically "Daemon Princes", p 64 provide the points calculation method.
This is based on the number of rewards.

So either you choose a base profile and the rewards (including a final Eye of God) that make the Daemon prince like you want him and calculate the points cost from there,

or

you completely create him randomly, re-rolling all chaos spawn results - the way it is meant to be

 

[ManicMan]

^_^ I'm going with a pre-made Prince, but giving him a Champion which will be random, and a warband to act as an ally's unit, which again will be random.

The guy I have in mind for the pre-made.. well, I'm not saying right now but it's very connected.. I was gonna kitbash a figure cause there was never one for him as it was more an example guy, BUT.. while looking for a couple of parts to finish what I had in mind, I found a figure that was just SOO perfect.. then I noticed the name... and there is a good reason he is SOO perfect ^_^

That's one problem with them cutting up RoC into 3 books (of which 2 were released).. stuff is all over the place.

Lets try to work out this this points.. A Champion of Chaos has the base price of 60.. but he began (stat wise atleast) as a Level 5 Hero which would have had the points value of 28.. I'll go with the 60 to be on the safe size.. + 30 for each reward.. well.. He doesn't seam to have any rewards. He does have 5 Chaos Attributes which appear to be free. Also has a Chaos Weapon (with 2 Properties) and Chaos Armour.. but theses are included in there points... I think.. Okay, I know the word subsumed means included but boy, they wanted to be fancy so.. 60 points.. now that is tripled so that's 180...
mm.. erm.. 180pts for a pretty strong Dæmon Prince seams.. a bit small.. more so as he can give rewards to his champion but.. oh well

 

[KingOfTheLeadPile]

I tend to disagree But might be reading the book wrongly.

A Champion of Chaos has the base price of 60.. but he began (stat wise atleast) as a Level 5 Hero which would have had the points value of 28.

That does not matter, whether basic human or level 25 dark elf, or...

The points value of a Champion of Chaos is not directly related to his powers. Instead, it is determined by the number of rewards he has received.

So to my understanding you always start at 60.

---

+ 30 for each reward.. well.. He doesn't seam to have any rewards. He does have 5 Chaos Attributes which appear to be free. Also has a Chaos Weapon (with 2 Properties) and Chaos Armour.. but theses are included in there points... I think..

Not to my understanding. When you follow the "Road to Power" rules, you start with whichever profile you roll up; no equipment, no chaos attributes, no nothing.

Then the fresh champion receives one chaos attribute and one chaos gift (e.g. Khorne = suit of Chaos Armour).

So this would already be 60 + 30 + 30.

Then you gain rewards via the Chaos Rewards Table, Lost and the Damned p. 45.

• 01-40 = Chaos Attribute
• [...]
• 49-53 = Chaos Armour
• [...]
• 91,00 = Eye of God, can result in Chaos Weapon

So if your Champion has 5 Chaos Attributes, a chaos weapon and chaos armour, in my book you are at:

60 + 5*30 + 30 + 30 = 270
Tripled for Daemon Prince = 810

---

As I said, I might be wrong, but that is how I read the rules.

 

[ManicMan]

As the Dæmon is pre-created It was a bit confusing ^_^. He has 5 Chaos Attributes listed, but no rewards.. which kinda looks like would have been impossible to be anything but a Chaos Spawn at that point.. So.. Attribute comes under reward.. okay, I can get behind that.. I wasn't 100% sure on the chaos armour value because there was a bit about the armour being included, but I'm willing to go with your working out as I expect you have FAR more experience with this then me ^_^ and the 810pts does sound far more like it.

I'll see about scratch building a champion tomorrow.. well, rolling for it and then seeing what I got to kit-bash together ^_^

 

[KingOfTheLeadPile]

Chaos Rewards = Gifts and attributes

Having a lot of attributes is a major drawback in the Eye of God test

I expect you have FAR more experience with this then me

Unfortunately mostly theoretical...

 

[ManicMan]

theoretical is still more then me when it comes to Chaos and working this out.. I think in some places they didn't give it enough proof reading to simplify explaining the rules and stuff. I'm still toying around with my own game idea and have done a complete rewrite where I just went though the rules, rewrote them to either make them simpler or just easier to understand (For example, I had the player(s) characters able to move at one of three speeds, which have different effects, and there being 3 different types of floor.. That just came across as overly complex, so it's down to 2 movement speeds and no floor types right now because the noise system has been greatly streamlined.. when I get it to a place where I wanna give it a test game (yay, Solo-play is highly in mind for this, though can be more) I'll do some more info and a report.

anyway.. Decided that instead of trying to find a D100 which... I might have one someplace, I'll have to do a digital roll.. easy enough (mmm.. I wonder if this forum has or can have a dice roller... AIM (AOL instant messeger) used to have this great dice roller.. just put in the keyword in the text with the number of sides and it randomly rolls and give a result so others knew you weren't cheating.. I miss decide IM programs and the reasons to use them ¬_¬ Still do use one but not as many people to talk to on it.. and it's P2P so no decent answering machine function..

 

[KingOfTheLeadPile]

I like https://anydice.com.

 

[Fimm McCool]

It really is the least decipherable system... I guess that's fitting for a book on chaos!

 

[ManicMan]

decided that I like the roll of the dice too much.. So I got a D10 and a.. well, I've always called them Percentage dice.. the D10 which are 00,10,20 etc..

that gives a D100 results ^_^ I'm still being a bit silly with not yet revealing the dæmon prince himself though giving it away a bit with the results here.. So.. lets go..
Starting Points- 60
Profile roll: 78 and 46.. They are a Human Level 5 Hero. something a bit more interesting would be nice but I can make a few to pick and choose from ^_^ or just pick but this will do for now.

So.. next up, 1 personal Chaos Attribute.. on a D1000? ... you can get them but.. mm.. I'll roll the D10, then percentage with D10. and.. 197 - Blood Rage. Subject to Frenzy if near a wounded creature, including itself. lasts for 2D6 turns, if no enemies in sight, will attack friend and allys less pasts a cool test... now.. It says the Toughness is increased by one BUT... does it mean each time it takes the cool test, or overall in the starting profile.. wording is a bit unclear. I'm gonna say it starts off +1.. but feel free to point out my mistake.

Next up, he receives a Chaos Gift.. Which isn't part of the Rewards for that god as it says the first gift is from the Chaos rewards Table, not the one for the god.. but then it also says you can develop your own... which the God in question has his own.. so.. erm.. I'll randomly do one from the Generic list first, and then give him a second one from the tailored list..

59.. He has been gifted a Chaos Spawn as a pet..
and from his god's tailored list: 21, He has Levitation with 13 pts rolled up. Not too bad.
So.. this points his points currently to 60+30[bloodrage]+30[chaosspawn]+30[Levation]
150pts.. and I need to check his starting equipment at some point..
so.. lets work out his stat line..
started off as:

	M	WS	BS	S	T	W	I	A	Ld	Int	Cl	WP	PV
Human Lv5 Hero	4	4	4	4	3	1	4	2	7	7	7	7	60

and.. only ended up as

	M	WS	BS	S	T	W	I	A	Ld	Int	Cl	WP	PV
Human Lv5 Hero	4	4	4	4	4	1	4	2	7	7	7	7	150

so far..

Now I need to work out the Spawn.. which is.. randomly created with D6+6 chaos attributes from the mark of chaos list.. I'll do the 'instant' chaos spawn list as that makes the most sense to me. and my Spawn is.. 4, A Mummy.. mm.. interesting next.. D6+6 I get 8.. So 8 Chaos Attributes:
056 - Bestial Face (+1 fear) [Rolled 1 so Face of patron.. which means Goat.. which gives horns with +1 Gore attack [A+1])
626 - Mechanoid (+2 fear) [Partially mechanical.. 2 body parts: , 1 head (A +1 bite), and Arms (S+2, WS +1/+10.. well.. erm. huh?.. gets armour saving throw of 5 or 6
531 - Irrational Hatred (.. lets see.. 3 things it hates.. 1) GM choice...2) Goblins, 3) Humans) well.. only me here and the Cat isn't being much useful as a GM so. I'll re-roll that one 1b) Elves)
403 - Feathered Hide
141 - Bestial Face (+1 fear) [oh dear.. rolled 8.. which means.. Goat with horns +1 gore attack (A+1)
790 - Rotting Flesh (+1 fear)
033 - Beaked (+1 fear, also A+1 for a bite attack)
448 - Growth [roll a D3?...I might have one but I don't think so.. I rolled a D4 and just plus 1 if it was 1.. kinda bias it but oh well.. I rolled a 1.. so it's X2 size]

so.. I have a Mummy with 2 goat heads, one of which has a Beak, it has a feathered hide (with useless arm wings), is twice the size of normal, with Rotting flesh, mechanoid arms and 1 head.. (while I didn't get multi-heads attribute, since I got 2 Bestial faces, I'll take that as it must have 2 Bestial faces which it defines as heads.).

wow.. that's gonna be.. some work.. for the Spawn.. It's points are.. lets see.. base value of... well, I didn't to it as a champion but instant.. so.. it says that would be 10pts + 10 for each attribute.. so 90pts (it does even point out for instant chaos spawns so that is right).
and the Spawn's stat line is.. more complex then the Champion..

	M	WS	BS	S	T	W	I	A	Ld	Int	Cl	WP	PV
Chaos Spawn	3	3	0	4	5	4	3	2	9	8	8	9	10

[Taken from Armies for a Mummy]

then becomes

	M	WS	BS	S	T	W	I	A	Ld	Int	Cl	WP	PV
Chaos Spawn	4.5	3	0	8	6	6	2	6	9	8	8	9	90

with Fear Points of.. 7
I'm not quite sure working out the new WS.. the whole +1/+10.. doesn't say to roll a D10 but.. maybe?

Lets get feedback before I try to work out his retinue... (also.. does 4.5 round up or down? or.. move 4 and a half inchs?)

 

[KingOfTheLeadPile]

I'm not quite sure working out the new WS.. the whole +1/+10.. doesn't say to roll a D10 but.. maybe?

What is unclear? WS +1/+10 means WS +1 for Fantasy Battles and +10 for Fantasy Role Play.

Or did I misunderstand your question?

 

[ManicMan]

ah.. missed that bit ^_^ and no, didn't misunderstand the question. I just missed where it said that since it mostly says it'll say WFRP for that, and WK40 for that etc, thanks

 

[ManicMan]

I'm not quite sure on the starting Equipment by Champion would have.. probebly starting with a hand weapon but decided I'll see about giving him 2 more rewards taken from the patron. that'll end him up with 4 rewards (one from generic, and 3 from it's god)

86- Special name.. well.. that's gonna have to weight cause I haven't done the champions name yet, so tricky to work out the conversation for it ^_^

46 - Huge incisors.. Teeth so bit that it is unable to close it's mouth propely and get a +1 poisonous bite attack.

so that means

	M	WS	BS	S	T	W	I	A	Ld	Int	Cl	WP	PV
Human Lv5 Hero	4	4	4	4	4	1	5	2	7	7	7	7	150

with a hand weapon and poisonous bit.
I recalutated his points because re-checking page 196 it says a Champion with 5 Chaos rewards is 150 points.. I shouldn't have counted his first two rewards as they are free so its 60+30+30+30.


and a random name generator says his name was Archibald before he turned to chaos.. and his special name his god gave him, by the rules of that gift means... ArAr... which sounds like his God is cleaning his throat.. works well to tell the truth.

So.. lets work out his Retinue.. roll of 4 means I get to roll once on the retinue table..
49.. he gets D6 Chaos Goblins.. oh.. that might be a problem I know Chaos Humans don't count as human but do Chaos Goblins count as Goblins? if they do, the spawn really hates them... and the D6 is 4.. He gets a Retinue of 4 Chaos Goblins.. not bad.. I can make a nice little group here with the God, Champion, Chaos Spawn and 4 Chaos Goblins.. fun

they have the stating profile of..

	M	WS	BS	S	T	W	I	A	Ld	Int	Cl	WP	PV
Chaos Goblins	4	2	3	3	3	1	2	1	5	5	5	5	2.5

armed with light armour, shield and hand weapon + optional bow
their dominant attributes are.. D6-4.. so they have.. -3 attributes.

Ah, but it says to roll for Retinue for every 2 Chaos bits he gets.. he has 5, so I get another roll 4 says 1 roll.. 30 says 2D beastmen.. which is a 5 and 6 He get 11 Beastmen.. Beastmen are dull I think but fair enough.. Armed with light armour, shield, and either Hand weapon or double-handed weapon.. their stat line would be

	M	WS	BS	S	T	W	I	A	Ld	Int	Cl	WP	PV
Beastmen	4	4	3	3	4	2	3	1	7	6	7	6	10

Beast men have D6-3 Dominate attributes I rolled a 3.. so they have none.. that's easy to work out.

I'm not 100% sure on the points costs for the Retinue.. I'm sure I read a bit with the Champion which says something like 10 pts per model, but right now went with the basic profile value.. which for the beastmen is 10 but the Chaos gobbos is only 2 1/2.


and now.. I need to work out the Rewards given to them followers.. I guess it counts as 1 unit.. just a mixed unit which Chaos not only allows but appears to enjoy.. by the looks of things.. mmm.. every time they Champion gets a reward, either one or a unit of his troops get one.. mm.. since this is being created at the start,... either that would end up with 5 gifts passed down or... I might limit it a bit.. It said about getting some to one character as a second in command.. that sounds good..

Again, time to pause for a bit and think if I've got this right so far.. Then I can work out the 'rewards' his troops get and maybe then start looking through my minis and seeing what can be done ^_^

 

[KingOfTheLeadPile]

I'm not quite sure on the starting Equipment by Champion would have..

Oh, that is very easy to find, you just need to switch to "The Lost and the Damned", p. 48

You roll up the points you are allowed to spend (D6+1 for a level 5). You also get another roll for every reward you gain, on 4+ you gain D6 extra points.

 

[KingOfTheLeadPile]

I'm not 100% sure on the points costs for the Retinue.. I'm sure I read a bit with the Champion which says something like 10 pts per model, but right now went with the basic profile value.. which for the beastmen is 10 but the Chaos gobbos is only 2 1/2.

That is one way, "Slaves to Darkness" p. 64, another is on "Slaves to Darkness", p. 198, which rules how warbands as part of an army of chaos are costed. Here it is 45 points for each roll on the follower table.

 

[ManicMan]

thanks.. wonder if someone has made up a decent index ^_^
so.. D6+1 = 3+1 So 4..
every time he get a reward rolls again to get extra equipment so.. as he is starting with 5 rewards (2 are part of his 'free' bits, I'll say.. that's 3 extra rolls.. 3,1,6.. So that's + d6 points.. and i got a 1 ¬_¬ so I have 5 points to spend.. As i don't have a model in mind, equipment doesn't need to bear that in mind.. I think Heavy armour for 3 and the final 2 can be something like a double handed weapon.. so that's him sorted out a bit better.

I think that's his profile sorted out then.. I can see what I can get together ^_^

 

[ManicMan]

Champion has a figure, just want to do a couple more tweaks before painting can start but I'm still debating some of them bits

either way, lets work out his group's rewards.. As he gets followers for each 2 rewards, I'll say they get nothing for his first 2 rewards as the champ got them before the followers. the Chaos goblins would then get 2 rewards which there master got before the followers, and then 1 reward he got after. the beastmen get 1 reward. Now.. it's a bit unclear on if the gobbos and the beastmen are one unit.. or two.. I would say it's personal preference.. and Chaos units can be very mixed up, so that would make stats a pain really (though I can't say when/if these will ever see action but oh well) So I'll say he has a group of Chaos Gobbos and a group of beasties.

now, it also points out (StD p62) that the Champion can pass SOME rewards to there followers.. but then the examples are from generic list, Khorne and Slaanesh.. which are the two gods in this book.. Since I'm not doing Nurgle or... damn, 4th god name passes me by for now as I'm typing, I won't look at them lists but... the special demon list for the god in question doesn't say which ones CAN be passed down.. So.. since various Face rewards from Slaanesh can be, I'll take it that they can be too.. In this case, the Champ only has the huge incisors they can pass down and that isn't gonna happen right now.

So.. Gobbos up first.. 3 rewards from the Followers reward table
43 - Chaos Attribute -518 -Irrational fear.. 4 - 1 - 1 Normal fear, 70 - they have a Fear of Wizards.
93 - Multiple rewards - 1 time - 000 - Special Reward only given to 1 follower. As it says a Chaos Reward, I'll use the God's taylored rewards.. It does seam to say this is fine ^_^ 17.. One gets a hunchback..
59 - Chaos Attribute - 72 - Bestial Face (+1 fear) - 2 - Face of its patron.. Goblins with the head of a goat.. mm gets gore attack (A+1).

So I have

	M	WS	BS	S	T	W	I	A	Ld	Int	Cl	WP	PV
Chaos Goblins	4	2	3	3	3	1	2	2	5	5	5	5	45

4 of them (45 points in total)
armed with light armour, shield and hand weapon + optional bow,
They have the face of a Goat, have an irrational fear of Wizards and the leader in this group has a hunch back

as for the Beastmen.. there 1 reward is..
53 - Chaos Attribute - 757 - Rapid regeneration.. that's fun.. even if dead, they can heal there wounds after each turn.

Stat line hasn't changed

	M	WS	BS	S	T	W	I	A	Ld	Int	Cl	WP	PV
Beastmen	4	4	3	3	4	2	3	1	7	6	7	6

11 of them (45 points in total)
Armed with light armour, shield, and either Hand weapon or double-handed weapon.

So.. If I got all this right.. I have my God incarnate for 810pts, his Champion for 150pts, the pet Chaos Spawn for 90, 4 Chaos Goblins for 45 and 11 Beastmen for 45.. 1140 pts total

 

[KingOfTheLeadPile]

Now.. it's a bit unclear on if the gobbos and the beastmen are one unit.. or two.. I would say it's personal preference.. and Chaos units can be very mixed up, so that would make stats a pain really (though I can't say when/if these will ever see action but oh well) So I'll say he has a group of Chaos Gobbos and a group of beasties.

Not sure if this is written somewhere or our way of playing, but getting beastmen and gobbos for us would be two units. If you then get beastmen again, you have the option of doing a second unit, or bolstering the first.


Nice little troupe you have there