Oldhammer Observation on Later Decades of Codex Threadmill

The 1980s were characterized by a wild plethora of all manner of miniature releases, many of which were niche to boot, and which has later been mined for inspiration or reintroduction by studio people. A whole slew of fantasy Regiments of Renown and 40k figures (and background) such as Administratum, Mechanicus personnel, Genestealer Cults and Ambulls, serve as but a few examples.

Games Workshop since the 1980s has seen a growth of army book straitjacket, or codex threadmill, and a loss of freewheeling creativity. The format of producing extensive and growing army ranges made it harder for the studio to follow their fancy and jump on odd one-off releases where a couple of handful of sculpts in some cheap metal moulds sufficed to call it a day. Increasingly, the miniature releases turned ever more rigid into catering to the codex threadmill. The transition into full plastic ranges only exacerbated the army book straitjacket, since hard plastic moulds are so expensive.

This trend has been something the studio has always fought back against, as if they wish to recapture the freewheeling creativity of the 1980s. The 1990s saw a healthy number of Regiments of Renown, petering out with new iterations of Mengil Manhide's Manflayers and Ruglud's Armoured Orcs after 2000. Niched vignette pieces (e.g. animosity Orcs), summer campaign releases and things like Specialist Games and Dreadfleet all stand as proof of attempts to have an outlet for freewheeling creativity in niche areas. As do Forgeworld itself.

Yet the army book straitjacket was inevitable. To sell well, most releases had to cater to existing armies, or had to introduce whole new armies with extensive ranges (Tomb Kings, Ogre Kingdoms, Necrons, Tau, Dark Eldar). More exploratory half-sized new armies were repeatedly attempted up to the early 2000s, with everything from Sisters of Battle, 1990s Chaos Dwarfs, Kislev and Daemonhunters, many of which turned out to be neglected one-offs in the long-term codex threadmill.*

Gone were the days when Citadel could release a Nipponese rocket launcher with crew and call it a day. Things had to increasingly fit the big army books.

The 40k Imperial Guard range serve as one example of how GW's freewheeling creativity was stymied over time (though it is not an example of peak freewheeling creativity in the 1980s):

The 1980s Imperial Army was standardized, all Necromundan if you so like. Plastic and metal.

The 1990s Imperial Guard sported plastic Catachans and metal Cadians, Mordians, Pretorians, Tallarns, Valhallans and Steel Legion in 2000. Lots of different regiments to hint at a vast setting with infinite variety.

The 2000s Imperial Guard sported plastic Cadians and a brilliant spasm of metal Vostroyans. There was no shortage in the early 2000s of new alternative Guard regiment descriptions and artwork, yet without models. FW also produced Elysians and Death Korps of Krieg.

The 2010s Astra Militarum was all plastic Cadians and Catachans. No White Dwarf exploration of other aesthetics without miniatures, since that could throw third party manufacturers a bone (IP mania is destructive for creativity).

Likewise, it may be noted that recent plastic kits' inclusion of funky details like silly Nurgling minions, fly mutant Terminators or a scorched heretic for the Sisters of Battle is a way to do some fun niche stuff within the constraints of all plastic ranges. As is the tendency to more carefully (and less freely) pose plastic miniatures like you would a metal model, but previously not a multipart plastic mini.

As such, when you see funky old models making a return in Necromunda or niche box games, remember that the army book straitjacket was something the design studio always tried to break free from, seemingly to recapture some of the exploratory and freewheeling creativity that was a hallmark of Games Workshop in the 1980s.

It should also be remembered that while ranges of primarily metal or resin sculpts allow more creative freedom for the sculptors, ranges of multipart plastic allow more creative freedom for the hobbyists. It's a trade-off, and no kit has ever struck a perfect balance between the two. The plastics released around 2000 were the peak of convertibility, but their poses were not as naturalistic as those of better metal models. The current trend of virtually pre-posed plastic kits is clearly an attempt to recapture some of the sculpting quality lost when moving from metal to multipart plastic. Yet it occurs at the loss of Lego-like customizability for the hobbyist.

Just some observations on GW creativity through the decades. The spark has never died through all the natural style shifts, but the constraints have increased. That is one reason as to why the 1980s was such an outstanding creative rollercoaster. :)

Cheers

___________
* Several newer half-sized armies in 40k and Age of Sigmar seem to have pulled off this stunt with more success, such as Harlequins and Custodes. Plastic sticks better. Change in CEO aside, this is one viable way for freewheeling crativity to explore niches of the setting with miniatures. It's still an army, but the required work and investment is more limited than entirely new fully fledged armies require.
 
Re: Oldhammer Observation on Later Decades of Codex Threadmi

Ironic that while creativity at GW has reduced because of the high cost of plastic moulds.This has led to a huge increase in creativity by gamers because of those plastic moulds. It is just much harder to customise a metal figure.
 
Re: Oldhammer Observation on Later Decades of Codex Threadmi

Malacassa":h5tw1rbl said:
Ironic that while creativity at GW has reduced because of the high cost of plastic moulds.This has led to a huge increase in creativity by gamers because of those plastic moulds. It is just much harder to customise a metal figure.

The main thing that plastics introduced to me was a characterless uniformity. With metals, each model was created by a sculptor as a singular character, with a backstory and individual details, even down to the lowest goblin.

A modular plastic is by definition generic and soulless, not a 'character' as such, just a kit of parts. It doesn't have a backstory or a personality in mind. It was created with two things in mind; to fit together as easily as possible, and to fit on a sprue without fouling the mould.

Personally I far prefer working with metals when doing conversions, it's taking someone's original character and adding to it.
 
Re: Oldhammer Observation on Later Decades of Codex Threadmi

This is also true. Though the more bold conversions that goes beyond simple kitbashes and which tries to inject character into a model can work beautifully in plastic, in the right hands. Usually involving some sculpting and a lot of reposing.

Similar conversions can be done all in metal as well, often to more striking effect. :)

I can for the moment not find Xander's project log on CDO where he recreates certain late 80s old Chaos favourites in plastic and green stuff, otherwise I would have shared it over here.

Plastic kits being soulless is true. They've always been that way. Fun to build, but they don't have the character of metal sculpts. Which is one reason why I've increasingly stuck to metal miniatures through the years. In contrast to my friends, who has usually followed the plastic wave.

Special mention may be made of at least two new Death Guard/Nurgle Space Marine plastic model. They are part of a plastic Terminator kit, but where designed not so much for soulless interchangability of parts as usual. Instead they both had a characterful theme going over their entire model (fly mutant and bloated fat), despite being part of a plastic squad kit. I've never seen that before: It seems a conscious way of working some metal character into a plastic kit. Especially since of of them is a fly mutant, an obvious 1980s reference. It's not as characterful as the older metal Chaos Warrior sculpts (the poses don't stick out, for instance, and the fly mutant don't sport several big bold fly arms like the 80s Chaos Champion does), but as a sculptor I was still positively surprised to see it.

I've missed metal character with GW for so long. It'll be interesting to see if they can recapture some of it in future plastic kits.

Cheers
 
Re: Oldhammer Observation on Later Decades of Codex Threadmi

There is no doubt that many of the 80s ( and even some 90s ) metal sculpts had distinct character and charm to them. With that said there is also many factors as to why that is. Some of it becomes a bit grey some of it is down to the many sculptors and creative passion going on at the time in the studio.

We have to remember that this was the early days and also when Jes and John were spending time and many others trading back springboard ideas over Realm of Chaos and many other factions as they were then being first developed and designed and finally sculpted. Another thing which must be pointed out is that many of the sculptors at this time were nowhere near what they are today in skill level. We can admit that many sculpts from back then are "instant classics" and much loved, in terms of precise details and proportions it's rather 50/50.

This is an important factor to take into consideration, since it's what partly lends to their "character/charm". It would be best to view the classic 80s sculpts as "very organic" in nature. Unlike today they did not have PC sculpting available to them, and on top of that they were LEARNING how to sculpt specific things while already knowing how to sculpt other things. If you look at some of these ranges many border on or literally are "comical/cartoony" in sculpting style where as others have a more precise fine detail and proportion such as Jes Goodwins classic minis.

Take for an example many of the Marauder sculpts next to Jes Chaos stuff, one looks rather bulky and chunky but has it's distinct look where as Jes sculpts tend to have a really fine neat precision to them often looking as close to possible as his concept drawings. Where as the Perry twins have a sometimes rough/raw look to them that often contain both chunky and precise details.

No doubt there was plenty of tongue n cheek thrown in all over the place during this time as that plays a part in it all as well, but I think one of the main evident visuals here is that the design and sculpts were all over the place. This created a more distinct variable across many ranges of that era vs today, at some point into the 90s it's clear that the studio had a coherent ( mostly ) sculpting look in both main games.

Fast forward to today, I would argue some points here:

1 Due to PC sculpting and skill we no longer have the big heads or cartoony and chunky bits, on the flip side everything detail wise is superior hands down. We are able to get details that simply would never have been possible during that time thanks to modern technology. Plastics have also allowed us to have much bigger more accurate scale minis that would have been a total nightmare pinning + weight and other factors. The plastics have easily rivaled many metals of the past but perhaps not some aspects of resin.

2 There certainly is some total "classics" of today that embody character and charm, instant "gotta have that one" like we saw in blisters on the racks, it's just they tend to come in character plastic sculpts or specific minis part of unit kits that stand out. A bit of irony today is that while they have gone back to semi mono pose ( or maybe better to say limited pre pose options ) it's come at a cost of dolly part like pieces that we could pose on our own but never really looked dynamic like now. We can still convert and in many cases the amount of plastic options out there is so much easier for that.

3 I love the oldhammer minis and character of that era as much as many others, yet at the same time I love the new hyper realism and dynamic poses and details of today. There is clearly a nod to many oldhammer things in recent years with GW, placing some classic pieces or icons and things of that nature on modern sculpts. We can see this in some of Seb Perbets and Darren Lathems sculpts. I think they have ( and a few others ) done justice evolving and bringing back some RT/3rd Ed FB elements with the modern way of things. There is going to always be a compromise here due to factors that cause roadblocks and what the demand is from customers.

One option would be opening up the back catalogues but I think that will be a rare day if at all. Who knows though with all the reprints GW has done at warhammer world with ROC/RT etc they may slowly realize there is a market for some of this and could always evolve that. They are fickle at times so who really knows what the future may be.

I think the difference now vs then is that we have a craving for the imperfect charm characters of the past, and that is not found in the high detail dynamic "statue" like but "cold" look of the modern kits. The only way that look could be achieved again would be intentionally asking/forcing the sculptors to go back to that rough organic imperfect style which is kinda like asking an artist 20 years later to not evolve and paint/draw like the past only.
 
Re: Oldhammer Observation on Later Decades of Codex Threadmi

PlainsWorld90":3g2nfjhz said:
One option would be opening up the back catalogues but I think that will be a rare day if at all. Who knows though with all the reprints GW has done at warhammer world with ROC/RT etc they may slowly realize there is a market for some of this and could always evolve that. They are fickle at times so who really knows what the future may be.
I’m not sure that I’d welcome it if they did. I’d prefer a modern take inspired by the old RT and WFB worlds. Imagine a force of Olivia-style Imperial Army without the “characterless uniformity” of the modern figures. Or a regiment of chaos warriors made up of figures with RoC WTFedness…
 
Re: Oldhammer Observation on Later Decades of Codex Threadmi

Did watch Latham and Goodwin on Warhammer Podcast talking about miniatures and I got feeling that Latham isn't sculptor to some extend. Did notice his remarks on Blanche concepts compared to Goodwin concepts. He did say that Blanche is more free in concepts ( as concepts should be ) and that Goodwin got more as a blue print, so I hope that Latham isn't one of "those" sculptors 3D artists like most in "video game industry" where they think that blue print is same thing as concept, so they took concept and make copy in 3D without using one brain cell. Of course, there is some guide lines of GW that couldn't be modified for anything but since I saw yesterday new Space Savage Orks and Fantasy Hobgolins ( talking about scales? Absolutely horrifying sculpt ), there could be little bit space to think. Got that feeling from that podcast.

Most of today plastics ( what I saw ) are simple horror to convert anything. Since they are become masters in mould usage they tend to brake miniature in parts almost unusable for conversions. Not to mention that today miniatures are out of place when comparing with old ones ( '99 downwards ). What I saw of course.

I do recall that Goodwin doesn't work in digital clay so to say, so I guess that he point finger over Latham's shoulder and "do this", "try that", "push that button maybe?" hehe of course when they work together on project.

Also, even I didn't make many, if at all, conversions. Plastic ones that got multi parts are far easier to convert then metal ones. I do like metal ones over plastic but you're limited to what is outside whole, so if character is, something like many chaos champions, I don't see how one could convert it without taking drastic measures by choping most of the miniature and then chop another one in pieces and ended with puzzle similar to plastic multi part miniature. In older Warhammer editions there are plenty of converted miniatures but seems that always the same ones got conversions but with different parts that, again, should be easier to chop. It seems like that to me.
 
Re: Oldhammer Observation on Later Decades of Codex Threadmi

Nah, couldn't imagine that Latham is one of those. After so many miniatures painted to such "standard" and being involved in paint making and all. Was more as collaboration with senior veteran designer. Does anyone knows what miniatures he designed? As today, you don't see what is who's since Warhammer is bigger then ever so it''s not important who design it or paint it but you guys probably know.
 
Re: Oldhammer Observation on Later Decades of Codex Threadmi

If I recall off the top of my head Latham sculpted the PLASTIC sternguard, the genestealer cultists and...not too sure what else. Ah wait I think he also sculpted the recent plastic Space Wolf Characters. While I'm not exactly sure why this is the boxes no longer really tell anyone who sculpted what anymore, sometimes WD does mention who did.

There was some threads on other forums some years back with timelines on who sculpted what but it's a shame we don't have that info anymore and it's a lot harder to tell today vs the past with metals where it was almost instantly known. I think Jes did sculpt the plastic Bloodthirster but we also know that he works with the design team and both Seb P and D Latham have worked with him.

It's hard to say exactly how it all works out now, Jes has said he is rubbish with computers so he probably does sculpt mostly the old way. Perhaps from time to time for specific parts maybe the team prints some overall shapes for him and he goes to work in green on top of that ?

At times I like Metal as well, the problem is when it comes to converting it's a huge headache depending on what you want to do. A high % of the conversions back in the oldhammer days were quite simple by today's standards. Usually weapon/head/hand type swaps. Once in a while you would see some more elaborate conversions but those take a lot of time and work where you would have to go in and sculpt a little bit between joints and other things.

With plastic it's very easy due to the nature of it all. While many of the "today" dynamic multi part breakdown sculpts are great they often leave certain conversions to be limited with the poses themselves which is the only real issue. However I think even then with enough planning and dry fitting SOME of those issues could be overcome.
 
Re: Oldhammer Observation on Later Decades of Codex Threadmi

Genestealer cult got nice miniatures.

I think most of the guys back then work on contract so names were probably in contract agreement. I did notice that Kevin Adams was titled for miniatures, then he left and in newer catalogues ( new at that time ), was credited ( if credited at all ) as GW design team, I think. As today, I think most of them are employees so their names are not that important as GW is showing you Warhammer 40,000 and AOS as is, imaginary worlds and all that. Just like in games, you might be on credit list ( if player did finish the game ) as this or that but no one know what exactly did you make, especially if there is 10 designers, or something like that.

Goodwin mentioned that last green stuff sculpt was one of the Skitarii blokes. He's more of concept artists now days so he relies on 3D sculptors. I think that was one of the reasons that few designers left or got fired as they're more green stuff then ZBrush, speaking of organic sculpts. Speaking of digital sculpts, I did watch interview with Perry Bros. and one of the Perrys said he digitally sculpted Smaug in few months + that was his first contact with pen and tablet! I mean, such a talent. I mean, one who sculpts in traditional or draw traditional ways, it would not be very long until one got grip with program but Smaug? for novice in program, must be one month clearing his head from all sub tools and all and not to mention millions and millions of polygons performance wise and there's few other things that I would like to know how he handles it.
 
Re: Oldhammer Observation on Later Decades of Codex Threadmi

For most recent things I believe Jes worked on with/as joint design/concept the plastic Knight Titan, most of the ad mech/skitari etc. I'm pretty sure the same goes for the majority of the primaris range. While I mentioned the bloodthirster I know he also sculpted the last metal khorne champion and lord on juggy, the one before that ( the he man axe one with the hanging morning star ) is Gary Morley who did the khorne lord on horse. 99% sure he did the nurgle guy champion with the two handed spear halberd thingy and the lord on the rotting horse with scythe.

The 5th ed plastic warriors of chaos are a mix I believe of dave andrews and aly morrison, although I forget who sculpted the recent ones from storm of chaos, which the most recent AOS ones are more or less based on just with dynamic cooler poses vs mono block reg walking forward. Slaanesh champions were Juan Diaz which I know many people love his daemonettes...and while I think he is well suited for slaanesh I have a soft spot for some of the marauder slaaneshi-style as well, that being the rivet leather chaos warrior with axe from 1990 and Azazel, they may not be utterly beautiful but they have a unique brutal and elegant beauty to them which I think is sometimes ideal for capturing that slaanesh perversity depending how you view it all.

Late-ish 2nd ed 40k is def Aly Morrison for the metal chaos space marines ( plastic arm ones ) and it def screams marauder style. Not all the chaos marines are Aly but many are from that codex release. Pretty sure the Twins sculpted many of the Imperial Guard from 2nd ed as well. If I recall it was more around 3.5 or def 4th edition 40k that there was a number of new guys doing the sculpts and some of the old guard. With WFB if I remember it's a similar thing as well over some of the final sculpts and ranges.

Middle earth stuff, it's mainly the perry twins, brian nelson, garey morley...hobbit era I'm pretty sure is both the twins and the morrisons. Something happened during War of the Ring era however, because many of the "filling out ranges and unique characters" are the perry twins, but they look like a huge chunky downgrade vs the 3 film era sculpts, like the faces are really really potato head bad and most of the sculpts are REALLY fat. You notice this instantly and it's not the scale rather the chunkyness of the sculpts themselves. I dunno if this was because the Twins were in some rush to get them all done and having to do so many, or if they just half assed it but it's one of those situations I would like to know why they look so off vs before.
 
Re: Oldhammer Observation on Later Decades of Codex Threadmi

Cannot stand Diaz Daemonettes really. Those were second miniatures that I have sell on Ebay ( first was Strigoi Vampire ). Crowd goes wild when Diaz is mentioned but I, must say, remain cold blooded toward his miniatures. Didn't like 5th ed. Ghouls also, I drown them on Ebay also, as I did Lahmian Vampires. Old school Daemonetes are exactly as you described them, perverse, I mean really perverse. Diaz Daemonettes are more like girls that just want to have fun little bit of giggle hehe joking, but really, don't like them. Did hear on interview with Morrison that his first 3D sculpts were plastic Marauders. Now I remember, I think Diaz did one bloke from Dark Eldars range, that guy looks great. He's top notch sculptor no question about that, but to me something is missing, like spirit, but then again, all illustration direction has changed after ( as I stated before ) first LOTR cover of White Dwarf. To me that was new cycle, new era. Even thou some later Chaos Champions looked like they made in 1999 but got to be casted in 2005 like Chaos Corcerer on horse and Nurgle Sorcerer on foot. Those look nice. Was looking into Dark Eldars and I see that Morely is credited for them mostly and I remember that Fitzpatrics first job in GW was design Dark Eldars ( to me, warriors, one of the most bland miniatures. Character look nice and grotesque are also nice ). Khorne Lord on Juggernaut, also was on sale but I failed to sell it even for 10GBP! haha
 
Re: Oldhammer Observation on Later Decades of Codex Threadmi

Loose Loser":1d9e0bez said:
Cannot stand Diaz Daemonettes really. Those were second miniatures that I have sell on Ebay ( first was Strigoi Vampire ). Crowd goes wild when Diaz is mentioned but I, must say, remain cold blooded toward his miniatures. Didn't like 5th ed. Ghouls also, I drown them on Ebay also, as I did Lahmian Vampires. Old school Daemonetes are exactly as you described them, perverse, I mean really perverse. Diaz Daemonettes are more like girls that just want to have fun little bit of giggle hehe joking, but really, don't like them.
I never undestood non-Diaz daemonnettes. Like Diaz Deamonettes are the only ones that manage to look vaguely erotic, while at the same time looking monstrous.
 
Re: Oldhammer Observation on Later Decades of Codex Threadmi

I think GW is quite bad for the hobby.

PlainsWorld90":mqldgqvx said:
One option would be opening up the back catalogues but I think that will be a rare day if at all. Who knows though with all the reprints GW has done at warhammer world with ROC/RT etc they may slowly realize there is a market for some of this and could always evolve that. They are fickle at times so who really knows what the future may be.
It's just a Warhammer World gimmick spitting in the face of RT fans outside of UK, though.
 
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