I recently realized something about the essence of Oldhammer

[AranaszarSzuur]

I recently started viewing Oldhammer 40k more as the version of Rogue Trader that flopped. Like AFAIK the term Oldhammer comes from Zhu and his The Oldhammer Contract and it's pretty much inspired by D&D OSR which was pretty much contemporary to it.
It's not just about old miniatures but about the old way of playing Warhammer while Newhammer is simply the new way of playing it. Like even 2nd ed is Newhammer.
Most players have very quickly adopted tournament play mentality and the army lists in Book of Astronomician and in WD were already a big shift towards it. Like GW Oldhammer was pretty much mainly The Beginning era and The First Expansion era with Rogue Trader rapidly becoming Newhammer. With remnants probably playing with Realm of Chaos books.
Like, it's the tournament style play which is Newhammer.

The Wolf Time scenario in Book of Astronomican was written for Rogue Trader rulebook but they ran out of space in it, just like with the original space combat rules.

Playing even with modern miniatures the old way is Oldhammer.

Interestingly, it means that there also was official Oldhammer revival by GW in early 2000s which was Inquisitor which according to Gav Thorpe was directly inspired by Rogue Trader and the old way of playing it. Which also means that Inq28 is Oldhammer.

 

[Fimm McCool]

The name 'Oldhammer' originated within GW as far as I am aware. It was used around the time of 6th edition to describe any previous version of the game, hence why that has stayed the real scope of Oldhammer despite 6th, 7th and 8th falling into unsupportedness since.

 

[AranaszarSzuur]

The name 'Oldhammer' originated within GW as far as I am aware. It was used around the time of 6th edition to describe any previous version of the game, hence why that has stayed the real scope of Oldhammer despite 6th, 7th and 8th falling into unsupportedness since.

Never heard of it. Also according to this thread it was created by Zhu:

Commercial use of the term "Oldhammer"

Mick Leach of Eastern Front Miniatures is advertising his forthcoming range of miniatures as "Oldhammer style miniatures" on Facebook. The Oldhammer community has a long and sometimes fractious history of being community led, and the name and concept of "Oldhammer" being community owned. Many...

forum.oldhammer.org

 

[Fimm McCool]

That's what Zhu would like you to believe. He's notoriously possessive about his branding, probably so he can carry on selling t-shirts. I have it on good authority from ex-GW employees that the term predates the formation of the Oldhammer community by a good while.

 

[MichaelStockin]

Well if anyone is trying to Trademark a concept good luck to them.
If they do, let me know. I will 'trademark' the concept of walking.

 

[AranaszarSzuur]

That's what Zhu would like you to believe. He's notoriously possessive about his branding, probably so he can carry on selling t-shirts. I have it on good authority from ex-GW employees that the term predates the formation of the Oldhammer community by a good while.

If GW employees used it it's hardly relevant since common use if this term originates from Zhu's blog post and this community. There was no common use of the term before it.

 

[ManicMan]

If GW employees used it it's hardly relevant since common use if this term originates from Zhu's blog post and this community. There was no common use of the term before it.

have to disagree.. in the Transformers 'fandom' (if you want to call it that), there is the term 'Seeker'. Today, this term is used officially on new transformers (mostly cause new writers of comics are mostly idiots who steal from the fandom or were part of that group at one point... and now just produce crap) to refer to Transformers which started with the Diaclone F-15 Eagle fighter 'Jet Robo Acrobat-Type' which was turned into Thundercracker, then recoloured for Starscream and Skywarp (later another set of 3, and a then some more and various remakes of it). Some say it is a fan coined term for the jets until early 2000s when it got used on licenced stuff.. however some people think it started sometime in the 90s but no one was 100% sure.. it was later found that 1) the US Marvel comic used the term 'Hunter-seeker' and even, one of the original department-store catalogues used the term 'The Seekers' to refer to them, which basically shows the term is in some way, from Hasbro who gave basic text and the like for the marketing.

The fact it appeared to not be heavy used until the online people of the 90s made it 'common use' doesn't make the term 'original' from then. It's called 'popularising'. DnD popularised the fantasy miniature wargaming role-playing games, but to claim it 'originates' with them is just retroactive history.. which is not history, but lies and mistakes.

If GW used the term, which I'm sure I did come across it in some magazine at some point, then they did most likely originate the term, where Zhu would have popularised it.

 

[Geroak II]

IMO what is and what isn't oldhammer boils down to our own perspective and preferences, i.e. what are the parts of this hobby we enjoy the most. I'm not into gaming, so for me it's first and foremost miniatures and art (and to some extent lore) and I'm sure there are plenty of both old and new sets of rules I could use to bring the setting to life the way I liked to. Storytelling and continuation between games are things I was most interested in when playing and Mordheim, for example, offers just that. Are the rules oldhammer? No. Did they let me play the way I enjoyed while using old miniatures? Yes.

 

[AranaszarSzuur]

If GW used the term, which I'm sure I did come across it in some magazine at some point, then they did most likely originate the term, where Zhu would have popularised it.

Thing is that Zhu's Oldhammer that started this community is clearly inspired by D&D Old School Renaissance, not on obscure GW use. I was searching for it within 2000-2010 date range and the term simply didn't exist in WH online communities back then.

The point is that the divide between playing Oldhammer and Newhammer is that it's the old way of playing Warhammer, not a particular edition.

For example stuff like this is much more Oldhammer:

The Pilgrym – IRON SLEET

Posts about The Pilgrym written by Toni, Migs, and Mikko

ironsleet.com

Between the Bolter and Me

www.betweenthebolterandme.com

Between the Bolter and Me

www.betweenthebolterandme.com

than let's say Rogue Trader competitive play using army lists which is in essence Newhammer.
Like, Newhammer really dates back at least to early Rogue Trader days - with WD and Book of Astronomician army lists being a sharp turn towards Newhammer.

 

[ManicMan]

Thing is that Zhu's Oldhammer that started this community is clearly inspired by D&D Old School Renaissance, not on obscure GW use. I was searching for it within 2000-2010 date range and the term simply didn't exist in WH online communities back then.

I can debate some of that but you did state 'online communities' so that gives a bit of difference.. I haven't checked some of the old Newgroups and some of the old Yahoo clubs/groups don't even have archives these days...

But I stick by my point. You can popularised already existing term, not originate. I would check some old WD around 6th to check but apart from maybe the odd issue brought cheap at a boot sale (back when they were a thing.. don't see many these days) I don't have access to any WD that modern.

 

[Fimm McCool]

Zhu didn't start Oldhammer. His was one of a few blogs which were exploring/reviving/celebrating older editions of warhammer which coalesced into a community from which the forum emerged. Apart from being one of many who were there at the start all Zhu did was slap some branding on using a term already known amongst GW staff. I'm not saying he didn't do damn fine branding, but ownership of the name and founding of the movement is too much to claim..

 

[Geroak II]

@AranaszarSzuur: If I got it right you're talking about 'Spirit of oldhammer'? Honestly, isn't that pretty much as ambiguous term as can be and depends exactly in our own perspective and preferences? When I mentioned rule sets I wasn't talking about only ones made by GW and I don't think neither minis or rules need to be in any way related to GW for one to enjoy oldhammer. Game decided to take place in fictive settings created by GW is good enough for me to call oldhammer, minis and rules don't matter.

I still fail to see why would competitive gaming not qualify as oldhammer? After all the whole point is to have fun, so if players enjoy the game that way then what's the problem? Saying two blokes playing with RT-rules, using original miniatures and having a blast is not oldhammer because they play competitively feels just weird.

Personally I don't give a damn who coined the term oldhammer or what was person X's or Y's part in it, the whole thing grew way beyond any single person and there definitely should not be some spiritual leader to this whole thing, just people enjoying their hobby.

 

[Eric]

I think there is something to be said that the concept as it were isn't solely delimited by time is certainly valid. I've always felt the spirit was summed up by the old "we'll roll a D6 1-3 this, 4-6 that" and everyone was cool with it no matter the outcome. I've no idea if that "spirit" as Geroak put it existed in the other contemporary wargames of the period, it'd be interesting to see if those were more competitive or the mysterious something else.

If that "else" ended with 40kRT then it really didn't live long, I just read the editorial in Chaper Approved (Book of the Astronomican) and see it was published in '88 (and even then there good old Battlefleet Gothic was imminent!).

I think we'll find some people have always been easy going with games and other have been competitive. The closing page in Chapter Approved has this for instance:

Is it permitted to use a Marine Chaper of my own invention. I ask because my opponent refuses to right unless my Space Marines are painted in the uniforms shown on the box.
Geoff Hurt

How puritanical of your opponent! In fact you are not alone, Geoff - I receive quite a few letters each week asking the same question. The answer is simply 'do as you wish'. I designed WH40K so that the players could evolve their own material for it, adding to, expanding and thereby improving the original. Of course, you do have to reach an agreement amongst your gaming group. If, by inventing your own Chaper, you also seek to increase their fighting abilities in some way, I can see your opponent's point. However if all he is objecting to is the colour scheme, I really can't sympathise with him at all. The uniforms given in the WH40K book are examples only. Further examples are printed in the Index Astartes articles in White Dwarf magazine. I can't see us getting through all 1000 Chapters, however so there will always be room to invent your own.

I would assume those are Rick's wise words.

I certainly think a modern game can imbue more of an Oldhammer spirit, both in gameplay and aesthetics. However personally for me a lot of the attraction is nostalgia. If that is true for others then the term will end up fluid no matter what. My "oldhammer" is really mostly WFB3/4 and 40KRT along with all the boxed games of that era - BB2nd, Adeptus, AdvHQ, DarkFuture, etc. That is newer than those here who ground their axes on WFB1/2 and fell in love with 'C series', and earlier than the young whippersnappers who grew up with WFB4+ and 40K 2nd+, some of their "Oldhammer" still feels new to me despite it being pretty old now. So like many phrases quite what it means will no doubt evolve no matter its origins.

What is the core that proceeded the change then? If I understand correctly you felt the change was the competitive nature of list building and the potential for tournaments? I think a lot of that would have come about from the players if not the creators. Somewhere there are exercise books of "rules" we created to augment our games as kids and pages of units/regiments and so forth. So we were doing all that, so it doesn't surprise me that the GW staff (who whilst this was a commercial entity at that point a lot more was "passion project") were doing the same - their versions were just somewhat more professionally bound than my own offering! So I wonder if it would have ever been possible to hold onto that (certainly not I think for GW to become the successful company it has become)? Do you perhaps see that Oldhammer-spirit in the Inq28 (not overly familiar with the community, but I assume playing the later Inquisitor rules using 28 rather than 54mm minis?) because it's not "official" so by the very nature of it there is that DIY aspect and emphasis on home-brew?

Hard to know, feel I'm at risk of wandering off topic if I type much more!

 

[Fimm McCool]

Let's not have ANOTHER 'wot iz oldhammer' discussion.

 

[ManicMan]

surely, if it's meant to 'try' and be old and stuff, it should be 'oldehamur' anyway.. Oh, can I get first dibs on that?

 

[Eric]

Let's not have ANOTHER 'wot iz oldhammer' discussion.

We have perhaps been round the houses a bit on this one before! Let sleeping daemonettes lie and all that then maybe!