Beastmen=bad asses?

[Blue in VT]

Hey guys...I had a great game of 3rd Ed on Thursday with a couple of friends from work...I'd post pictures but am ashamed to on the same day that Nico marvels us with his art work..... Maybe tomorrow ..

Anyway a question came up...this is the first time that I have ever included a unit of beastmen in an army...and I noticed that both the rule book and the army's book give even rank and file beastmen 2 wounds!? And they only cost 10 points each! Is that a misprint?! If not I would declare them to be the best value going for troops.

What are your thoughts.

Cheers,

Blue

 

[Nico]

Wounds are OK, beastmen keep their 2 wounds until 5th ed.

 

[Orlygg]

Yes, two wounds for beastmen. They are hard bastards indeed, reflecting their bestial nature. During my Realm of Chaos campaign last year, we saw beastmen regularly overwhelming champions.

 

[Blue in VT]

Really? .that is just nutty! You would be a fool not to include these in your chaos list at only 10pts each. What a bargin!

I guess I better get them painted!!

Cheers,

Blue

 

[ardyer]

At least in 4th and 5th edition, they fled really easily and often go without an armor save. So they're not without their downsides.

 

[Orlygg]

The D6 -3 dominant attributes can add additional iron to their stats too. Alternatively, it can also have the reverse affect.

 

[Zhu Bajie]

10pts is correct. I think I'm right in saying they're the highest combat profile troop available before the PV modifier for monsterous infantry kick in.

Also consider that a standard human is 5pts, so you get 2 of those to a single Beastman, so that's 2 wounds and 2 attacks with a frontage of 40mm for the same point spend as a frontage of 25mm. Assuming you can bring the larger numbers into combat (long weapons, smaller base size, lapping) their relative effectiveness as a unit might not be so attractive as some alternatives.

 

[Erny]

Yes they are hard check that T4 and WS4 however they only have str3 and no natural minus to save. Further a wound is still a wound no matter how many you actually kill so it adds up to the same result for push backs and +1s to hit. I guess a boost from ranks sticking around longer is worth mentioning and the longer time to get to the magic rout test. But then 10pts unarmoured, hand weapon only isn't cheap for less points I can have a human with a halberd, light armour and shield. Not as tough but hitting harder and a 1/6 or 1/3 chance of no wounds at all.

All said I suppose there is a reason the Mighty, Dark-winged, Avenging Lord of Chaos has three units of 25 in his army.

 

[bug16]

But then 10pts unarmoured, hand weapon only isn't cheap for less points I can have a human with a halberd, light armour and shield.

*Looks at how much a basic skeleton costs*

 

[Erny]

Ah but you get to cause fear and be immune to psychology if you are a skeleton. And niftily be allowed to swell your ranks with spells.

 

[Zhu Bajie]

Just play 2nd edition, the point system isn't b0rken.

 

[Blue in VT]

Just play 2nd edition, the point system isn't b0rken.

Yawn...yes we get it Zhu....

Blue

 

[Zhu Bajie]

lol.

But it bares some scrutiny. Like beastmen, they are hard, but they're balanced at 10pts, as Erny points out a human with light armour and shield (and halberd?) - I'd kit out with spears - so half the second rank can also attack - also on smaller bases so more hits per round. So I don't see Beastmen as really cheap for what you get. Yes they're definitely brutal

Skeletons at 10pts, which is Bug16's makes little to no sense, why should Undead get a PV multiplier (*4) for causing fear / psych-immunity when nothing else in the game does? It would be fine if in 3rd Cause Fear had +4 PV and Psych Immunity had +4, but as written, it's just inconsistently applied.

 

[Blue in VT]

Just ribbin' you man ....I've never played 2nd so have no real comment on the differences....plus these days I only use the 3rds PVs as a guide and not as doctrine....that way lies madness (and more current GW thinking!)

Cheers,

Blue

 

[bug16]

Skeletons at 10pts, which is Bug16's makes little to no sense, why should Undead get a PV multiplier (*4) for causing fear / psych-immunity when nothing else in the game does? It would be fine if in 3rd Cause Fear had +4 PV and Psych Immunity had +4, but as written, it's just inconsistently applied.

Absolutely. In 3rd you really do have to go very heavy on the heros with Undead, as in 50% of your army, which I'm not massively keen on because you end up with a smaller more "elite with chaff" army whereas in 2nd you can field a massive horde army which is more how I like my Undead. Oh god.. I think I'm warming to 2nd edition again! Zhu you're a bad man.

 

[Zhu Bajie]

Mwahahaha! My plan is working. 2E!

Yeah Blue, I took it as a good natured Yawn. But hell, If I can't bang on about 2nd Edition PV system on an Oldhammer forum where can I ?!?

I think it helps to see how the PV system is limited and then work with those constraints. The problem (if one sees it as such) is that deviating from a purely mechanical system stops it being absolute, it starts interfering with the fantastical and narrative aspects of the game which it was never intended to do. IMHO that's where Rick went wrong with 3rd, and this wrong-headedness set in and continues to the present day. IMHO a PV system can't really account for situational modifiers like psychology, or terrain placement or bizarro-warp-canons, so it shouldn't try to. And if it does try (like 3rd) then it should at least try to do it across the board, which 3rd doesn't .

BTW I rephrased the 2E PV calculation system here: http://realmofzhu.blogspot.co.uk/2011/1 ... ystem.html

 

[Mahwell skel]

Yes I know it's a really old thread but in my opinion the best punch per point is still Pestigors in LatD. T+1 and 50/50 nurgles rot, halberds all round not a lot are going to drop. If I recall the points value does not change or not much for that extra toughness point.

Why take overprice chaos knights when you can mob up some pestigors and hold the centre forever!

 

[weismonsters]

My favourite comment frm the 3rd edition rules is in the bestiary entry for dragons: "Points values have been allocated by common sense.."