1644

John Acs

Serf
I AM LOOKING TO PUT ON A 1644 GAME BASED ON FOUNDRY'S RULE BOOK OF THAT TITLE. The larger the table I an get the better. I am posting this so anyone who is into historical gaming can bring their own figures and play or use ours. Though I am looking to play, I am happy just to umpire and have others try their hand. We should have 3 or 4 players of our own, but more are welcome. Last game we played at a show was an all day affair with 10mm figures on a 16 by 6' table and 10 players. It was awesome! The game at BOYL will be with 28mm pike and shotte.
Otherwise meet regularly on Sundays at Hitchin Wargames Club. All welcome and we have 40K style games on also.
If you are intending to 'muck in', I'd like to hear from you!
 
1644's a blast from the past.

I lived in Hitchin until 2022 and have gaming buddies there. Many of them will be at BOYL25. Where does your club meet?
 
John Acs said:
I AM LOOKING TO PUT ON A 1644 GAME BASED ON FOUNDRY'S RULE BOOK OF THAT TITLE. The larger the table I an get the better. I am posting this so anyone who is into historical gaming can bring their own figures and play or use ours. Though I am looking to play, I am happy just to umpire and have others try their hand. We should have 3 or 4 players of our own, but more are welcome. Last game we played at a show was an all day affair with 10mm figures on a 16 by 6' table and 10 players. It was awesome! The game at BOYL will be with 28mm pike and shotte.
Otherwise meet regularly on Sundays at Hitchin Wargames Club. All welcome and we have 40K style games on also.
If you are intending to 'muck in', I'd like to hear from you!
Click to expand...
John,

I'm into historical wargaming, but is this oldhammer or in the spirit of BOYL, I think you're going to have a hard job selling this one, when it comes to allocation of tables.

Paul / Golgfag1
 
We have been playing Warhammer at BOYL for some years now, mostly on the Friday, and though my personal preference is for a loosely historical mix, some figures used for 1644 are fanciful if not fantasy. The rules are Foundry's own, with modifications. The tactics in all games run along the same lines. What figures people bring is up to them. Maybe this is a chance to get figures out you haven't used in a while.
 
John Acs said:
We have been playing Warhammer at BOYL for some years now, mostly on the Friday, and though my personal preference is for a loosely historical mix, some figures used for 1644 are fanciful if not fantasy. The rules are Foundry's own, with modifications. The tactics in all games run along the same lines. What figures people bring is up to them. Maybe this is a chance to get figures out you haven't used in a while.
Click to expand...
That's as maybe John, I've played and enjoyed those games - but they were rooted very loosely in various editions of Warhammer. I don't know the rules you propose to use, well enough to say if they're an adaptation of rules orginally produced by Citadel / Games Workshop or that they sit well within the ethos of BOYL. Presuade me that they sit within any of those catogories and I'll wish you well. But until you do, if it was my decision, the answer would be no, as you could do an ECW type of game at at other wargames convention.
CIMG3352.JPG
Paul / Golgfag1
 
Not sure it is my place to wade in on the discussion (have only been to a couple of BOYL events and new to this forum), but perhaps would it be a happier compromise to use the ruleset, but make the forces/scenerio more explicitly in the Warhammer world? Otherwise the table really wouldn’t meet the ethos of the event. :?
 
Citizen Sade said:
Variety is the spice of life, isn't it?



As long as there's painted lead, people are having fun and no horses are being scared, I lean towards being ok with most things.
Click to expand...
Variety may well be the spice of life, but you appear to have missed the point - Where in John's proposed game is the association with Oldhammer?
John has utilized his ECW figures of numerous occassions at past BOYL events, playing old editions of Warhammer. So, we've established no one has a problem with the figures, their manufacture or style and he can use them as much as he wants as far as I'm concerned, but the games their used in should be essentially oldhammer in origin in my opinion, otherwise why bring them to BOYL which is a celebration of?
122_2684.JPG122_2683.JPG122_2686.JPG
John's Tercios and cannon at BOYL 2019.

Paul / Golgfag1
 
Last edited:
INDEED, WHAT IS BOYL THE CELEBRATION OF?

Gosh! You still have the old pictures! Well the buildings may well be back this year also... They are undergoing a reconstruction /repaint JOB at the moment. On the matter of Ethos. The event has rather been taken over by, dare I say, the younger, more progressive generation, who started their gaming career with fantasy. Who could blame them, historical wargaming 20+ years ago was 'dowdy' in comparison to the new fantasy world that was exploding at the time. Since then, new rule sets that have been slowly emerging in the last 15 years (abouts), which are more imaginative and 'kinder' for want of a better word, than their predecessors. Back then, I too preferred Warhammer which was a more than welcome change from competitive WW2 'win or lose' gaming, which had it's less than appealing side. Actually, a real turn off for any youngster.

Practically every rule book states the rules within should be viewed more as 'a serving suggestion' than some kind of rule of law. Competitive gaming aside. Warhammer in it's day broke just about all the rules, all at once. It was crazy and refreshing. I was there at each of the first two shops as they opened their doors for the first time. People collected fantasy, I already had 'invested' in soldiers. To me BOYL is a celebration of figure gaming. The rules are merely there to make a game work. What they are is immaterial, as long as they 'make sense'. Sometimes, half the game is interpreting them.

For now, it seems to me, from the comments being made so far, that in spite of the ethos as described on the BOYL website, fantasy gamers have been subconsciously hijacking the event for their own exclusive ideals. Understandable. Most attendees have 'invested' in fantasy gaming, brought their friends along and have created a wonderful 'vibe' which we all love. Long may it continue, and all credit to Foundry for making it happen! Maybe the new venue we have been led to believe is just round the corner, will be able to host these games on hopefully, maybe, even larger scale? will make more space for figure gaming, encompassing the concept in a more inclusive manner.

1743244125095.png Hip Hip - Hurrah! :ll X3 Charge !!!...
 
No one asked me but.

ECW models feel suitably Empire in my mind.
Especially the earlier editions which were very Olde English in their vibe. (The Riding, etc)

The ECW however does not feel like warhammer though, assuming the rules are used as is.
Maybe if it was a 'what if', the 2 sides united against the undead hordes of Kemmler?
But even then... ?

It is a ruleset for historical games, not games of warhammer (which are fantasy and or sci-fi?), having said that, would WAB be allowed/welcomed?

I am still not sure if I can come, if I can then I will not be interested in 1644 as I view the event as a chance to look at lots of warhammer models and terrain and have nostalgia feels.

On the same note, if the feel of BOYL shifted to allow non warhammer games and models to the point they became the majority on show, the event would lose its purpose?
 
John Acs said:
INDEED, WHAT IS BOYL THE CELEBRATION OF?

Gosh! You still have the old pictures! Well the buildings may well be back this year also... They are undergoing a reconstruction /repaint JOB at the moment. On the matter of Ethos. The event has rather been taken over by, dare I say, the younger, more progressive generation, who started their gaming career with fantasy. Who could blame them, historical wargaming 20+ years ago was 'dowdy' in comparison to the new fantasy world that was exploding at the time. Since then, new rule sets that have been slowly emerging in the last 15 years (abouts), which are more imaginative and 'kinder' for want of a better word, than their predecessors. Back then, I too preferred Warhammer which was a more than welcome change from competitive WW2 'win or lose' gaming, which had it's less than appealing side. Actually, a real turn off for any youngster.

Practically every rule book states the rules within should be viewed more as 'a serving suggestion' than some kind of rule of law. Competitive gaming aside. Warhammer in it's day broke just about all the rules, all at once. It was crazy and refreshing. I was there at each of the first two shops as they opened their doors for the first time. People collected fantasy, I already had 'invested' in soldiers. To me BOYL is a celebration of figure gaming. The rules are merely there to make a game work. What they are is immaterial, as long as they 'make sense'. Sometimes, half the game is interpreting them.

For now, it seems to me, from the comments being made so far, that in spite of the ethos as described on the BOYL website, fantasy gamers have been subconsciously hijacking the event for their own exclusive ideals. Understandable. Most attendees have 'invested' in fantasy gaming, brought their friends along and have created a wonderful 'vibe' which we all love. Long may it continue, and all credit to Foundry for making it happen! Maybe the new venue we have been led to believe is just round the corner, will be able to host these games on hopefully, maybe, even larger scale? will make more space for figure gaming, encompassing the concept in a more inclusive manner.

View attachment 12987 Hip Hip - Hurrah! :ll X3 Charge !!!...
Click to expand...
Why do people only quote the sections that they think support their point of view, when they wish to progress their own agenda. I suggest that you to go back to the home page https://www.bringoutyourlead.co.uk/ and read the first page, especially the section what is it.

I repeat if you can hit that brief, you're in as far as I'm concerned, but if you cannot - take your game to a more less specialized wargames convention.

Paul / Golgfag1
 
Last edited:
Indeed I quite agree. We are beginning to sound like politicians, beating our own drums (or is that sounding too wargamey) and ignoring points in the arguments of others. Ref: "people only quote the sections that they think support their point of view" The 'bubble' syndrome.

So: WHAT IS IT?
"Bring Out Your Lead (affectionately and unfortunately known as 'BOYL') is a celebration of all things Oldhammer; old games, old miniatures, old ... well, people too! We get together once a year to put on amazing narrative games surrounded by these old rules and miniatures - just like the pictures of the games we stared at in those various gaming magazines all those years ago before there was an internet. "

It seems there are two sets of statements circulating here: The 'Fantasy gaming' from the days of glossy advertising and the Warhammer 'feel' and the Copplestone products specifically mentioned, which are as varied between fantasy and historical as those of Foundry itself. Both statements do however lean more towards fantasy. Warhammer Ancient Battles isn't fantasy, even if it contains the word warhammer.

Olde Worlde bows, muskets and pointy sticks are well represented in the Oldhammer world and the figures it seems, are not it appears, the bone of contention. The rules are and maybe the setting.
So if the game narrative was two 'olde Worlde' antagonists bashing it out with Warhammer fantasy as opposed to WAB rules (not much difference really), would that be a compromise? Or if halberds and swords were engaged in hacking it out among wreckage in a post apocalyptic city scape?

Are we so afraid of the results of archaeology, research, history and arms and all that, or is it that not having to bother with all and turning to escapism is just so much more attractive? And of course the figures look great too! The inventiveness of fantasy is undeniable. However nothing is stranger than real life, which is where fantasy draws its inspiration from.

On the point of conventions, all of them now contain historical mixed with fantasy in a big way and no one grumbles about it. Some even have the model making community thrown in. Plastic aeroplanes and all that. Like I wrote earlier. Maybe the new venue will open up and allow for better inclusion. Old figures, old rules and nostalgia.

Undead hordes of Kemmler? - bring it on! Shooty stuff and pointy sticks...
 
John Acs said:
On the point of conventions, all of them now contain historical mixed with fantasy in a big way and no one grumbles about it.
Click to expand...

But those shows are meant to be about the wider hobby, BOYL is not, it is a specialist event and exclusive to oldhammer, it is not meant to be attractive to all, it is not about including all sorts of games, it is about oldhammer.
It is inclusive where it matters though, people. No-one will be excluded on identity.

But it is a themed event.

Like a classic car show, you would not be welcome if you wanted to bring a Tesla any more than bringing at a blu-ray at a laserdisc show.

John Acs said:
Are we so afraid of the results of archaeology, research, history and arms and all that, or is it that not having to bother with all and turning to escapism is just so much more attractive?
Click to expand...


No, plenty of people here also play historicals. Plenty of people love history.
This is not an event for that though.

No one is saying you can't play historicals, but people are saying that is not what this particular event is about.

I understand you want to play 1644, there are loads of events/shows where that is just the sort of thing people want.
BOYL is not that.
Specialist events are not a bad thing.
 
John Acs said:
Indeed I quite agree. We are beginning to sound like politicians, beating our own drums (or is that sounding too wargamey) and ignoring points in the arguments of others. Ref: "people only quote the sections that they think support their point of view" The 'bubble' syndrome.

So: WHAT IS IT?
"Bring Out Your Lead (affectionately and unfortunately known as 'BOYL') is a celebration of all things Oldhammer; old games, old miniatures, old ... well, people too! We get together once a year to put on amazing narrative games surrounded by these old rules and miniatures - just like the pictures of the games we stared at in those various gaming magazines all those years ago before there was an internet. "

It seems there are two sets of statements circulating here: The 'Fantasy gaming' from the days of glossy advertising and the Warhammer 'feel' and the Copplestone products specifically mentioned, which are as varied between fantasy and historical as those of Foundry itself. Both statements do however lean more towards fantasy. Warhammer Ancient Battles isn't fantasy, even if it contains the word warhammer.

Olde Worlde bows, muskets and pointy sticks are well represented in the Oldhammer world and the figures it seems, are not it appears, the bone of contention. The rules are and maybe the setting.
So if the game narrative was two 'olde Worlde' antagonists bashing it out with Warhammer fantasy as opposed to WAB rules (not much difference really), would that be a compromise? Or if halberds and swords were engaged in hacking it out among wreckage in a post apocalyptic city scape?

Are we so afraid of the results of archaeology, research, history and arms and all that, or is it that not having to bother with all and turning to escapism is just so much more attractive? And of course the figures look great too! The inventiveness of fantasy is undeniable. However nothing is stranger than real life, which is where fantasy draws its inspiration from.

On the point of conventions, all of them now contain historical mixed with fantasy in a big way and no one grumbles about it. Some even have the model making community thrown in. Plastic aeroplanes and all that. Like I wrote earlier. Maybe the new venue will open up and allow for better inclusion. Old figures, old rules and nostalgia.

Undead hordes of Kemmler? - bring it on! Shooty stuff and pointy sticks...
Click to expand...
No John, only two people quoted a section from the website, whereas, I directed anybody who cared read it, to the website. The object of the exercise is to comply with the whole, not part of it.

Again, I suggest you provide a reasoned response into why your suggested game meets the brief/ethos of BOYL and this discussion ends, rather than the fairly woolly responses you've given so far.

As for WAB, if I recall correctly somebody played it a few years ago, I don't think anybody was particularly surprised or disgruntled as the similarities/connections are obvirous to all with a modicum of inteligence and creativity, and if you were to use WAB for your game? I'd consider it pushing the bounds of connection to the event brief to almost breaking point for playing an ECW game at a specialist event, but a pausible on one, others may not. Just don't expect me to join-in.

Paul / Golgfag1
 
OK I tried. Warhammer it is then. Either a clash of giants. A chance to dust off the oversized figures that have not seen daylight in many years, or another Amazonian struggle with Lizardmen and the beleaguered Empire trying to hold on to their trading post.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top