Shift in the feel of the Empire?

[Fighelm]

Editorially, I pushed for WFRP to be more Renaissance than Medieval

Well, there you go. Mind the rpg element was always there from WHB 1e. Just defined the elements in two decades, fleshed it out. I mean it also went from WHB 1e mass battles in early WDs, ie Joe Dever, using all/any manufacturers (Feudal&fantasy) ranges to hand, to beyond 4e Citadel/GW own warhammer range and as Michael says 'standing armies' for Bretonnian knightly orders or Empire Elector counts etc, with allies, mercenaries /dogs of war. The production of their own range to fit the rules and developing world building, rather than individual minis or bargain sets to suit scenarios (like 1e into 2e regiments of renown)...

 

[Fighelm]

A few people in places have talked about the move from fantasy to grimdark fantasy in terms of the look.

I think the artchange to grim also happened 'osmotically'. You had goofier (satire fantasy) or more trad pics (romance, high fantasy) in early editions of the game, the articles, the painting on minis. Then seeping into more dire, hopeless grimdark stuff say, from middlehammer into the current 'old world'. Obviously because IP and patent, but also the artists are a newer gen, also influenced by modern gaming culture, what kidz nowadays want,etc. Also think computer aided art over old style freehand (Blanche fantay/grimdark aside) has changed the feel somewhat. Am I right in this? No idea but it, the tone, feels 'heavier' nowadays. Especially the Empire spittle dripping flagellant running amok than, say, Chalks image of an Orc sticking a spear in an Elf's back in 2e Orcs Drift scenario.

See Knight in Ravening hordes to Knight 8e Empire, tonal change in art &, I guess, all about IP and the little quotations grimdark quasi-wh40k

 

[Fimm McCool]

There's also an IP element in this, cynical as that sounds. Similar to the way all names changed with AoS. You can't copyright a feudal knight, but add a big plume, mash bits of armour from different countries/centuries together and slap on a distinctive crest and you can start claiming it as your design. It's no coincidence the aesthetics of Citadel miniatures changed dramatically as it floated on the stock market.

 

[Fighelm]

... Mind we have only ourselves to blame for all this and where it went with IP in the end. I mean they put an open invite out to us, the plebs, on the back of ravening hordes, trolling us
...'the early days of competition warhammer.'

 

[Brother Meredith]

There's also an IP element in this, cynical as that sounds. Similar to the way all names changed with AoS. You can't copyright a feudal knight, but add a big plume, mash bits of armour from different countries/centuries together and slap on a distinctive crest and you can start claiming it as your design. It's no coincidence the aesthetics of Citadel miniatures changed dramatically as it floated on the stock market.

Exactly ^
Folk seem to forget that this was a company developing their own brand identity out of some fairly generic ranges of models (be that fantasy or historical ranges).
The “lore” and design language behind this development, as much as I am invested in it, was a tool to sell more models from themselves.

 

[Fighelm]

The “lore” and design language behind this development, as much as I am invested in it, was a tool to sell more models from themselves.

Generational step change as well. Evolved away from RPGs (Runequest, D&D, etc) to purely tabletop Warhammer in all it's guises and world development (WHB & WFRP to AOS & a back step revival to Old World (but neo-9th ed!). Weirdly, the over-arching success of RT and 40K empowered them, this, and allowed it all to change + develop IP. The money poured in, despite 'no money in scifi' as Rick Priestly recalled.

 

[Michael Stockin]

As WFB changed over the years, do you feel the Empire has come to resemble 40k more. The newer WFB Empire seems Emperor centric with a heavy focus on Sigmar and the Imperial war machine.

Back in the day Sigmar was a minor deity and the units were a hodge podge of local troops banded together with a few standing troops such as knightly orders and maybe the Reiksgard.

It feels less rag tag now.

Is that how it is now?
I don't keep up so really am not sure.

Yes to it now having vibes like 40k Imperial shizz, or just different from what it started out as, or?

 

[Bong0_clive]

Listening to the Oldhammer Fiction Podcast, it's quite remarkable how 'low fantasy' and lot of that stuff was.

I'm thinking it was 4e that made the shift to 'high fantasy' too, along with the feel of it.

 

[Michael Stockin]

No idea but it, the tone, feels 'heavier' nowadays. Especially the Empire spittle dripping flagellant running amok than, say, Chalks image of an Orc sticking a spear in an Elf's back in 2e Orcs Drift scenario.

heavier but too much? spikes, skulls, seals, everyone having a religious artifact, barefeet, it all seems a parody of itself?

 

[Fighelm]

heavier but too much? spikes, skulls, seals, everyone having a religious artifact, barefeet, it all seems a parody of itself?

Yes, seems all too much,too serious, & to up its own Jacksy. Beyond parody. I mean look at this 8e flagellant. Could be a 40k chaos cultist...

 

[Fighelm]

Yes to it now having vibes like 40k Imperial shizz, or just different from what it started out as, or?

Now it's a serious grimdark 40k (even new old world stuff dragged into the look). Being facetious here also, but AOS always felt like a kind of steampunk 40k as well. However. I feel early Warhammer was very different, a product of it's time, an RPG breakout onto the tabletop, + an expansion of World & character building in familial tolkienesque/morecockian settings. Fantasy also came first, crossed over (bolters and needle guns!) then grew & evolved contemporary with RT + with shared satire & political tropes sprinkled heavily over the top of both early games versions. I mean one fantasy world supposedly existing in the 40k universe now, its a complete volte face. It was the other way round in 1983, fantasy with sci-fi elements (see pic below 1st citadel compendium). Feels different nowadays. GW very serious commercial colours (and heavy artwork) firmly pinned to the grimdark mast.

 

[Fighelm]

... An add to this is Rick Priestly wrote that piece in 1983, cross-over of WHB 1e to 2E. The very fact he discusses 'Warhammer' as an rpg battle fantasy with potential sci-fi cross over! Reflects Bryan Ansell later wanting to expand Citadel business into regiments for battles instead 1 or 2 figures for rpg. Article also included rules for high technology weapons: ie vortex grenades, Space Slann Amazon needle guns, lasers, even flame lances acknowledging M. Moorcock's (and his Hawkmoon) influence to come in Priestly & Halliwell's mystical fantasy embued 'RT' sci-fi. Nothing grimdark back then, but more open ended with plenty pulled over the 5yrs of development from existing sci-fi tropes & contemporary stuff : ie Dune (reluctant godhead/emperor), 2000ad /Nemesis the Warlock & also Rogue Trooper...

 

[ManicMan]

oh damn... you have said something which is really bothering me now..

tolkienesque/morecockian settings

I won't moan about that... but what is bothering me is.. Moorcock was the odd-name out in the original Warhammer credits (well... 2nd edition when it kinda create a 'warhammer world' compared to just the basic rules which the first version was more). (the other two people were very much gamers with a long history in the field). It was Dedicated to all three. I took the dedication being because of the amount Moorcock which was added as they introduced Chaos.. but there is also equal amount Tolkien. It might have been via DnD but its still there... and yet no 'dedicated to' for him?

this makes me really wonder did Moorcock have... any other involvement.. like the involvement which lead to them getting the license for the Eternal Champion (though not doing alot with it) .... mmm

 

[Fighelm]

Eh? Only person that can answer that is Rick Priestley! Warhammer, as a game, he says, was originally commissioned by Bryan Ansell to be a rules for a 'mail order give away' game to sell more figures (at the time the rpg D&D Tolkienesque kind) and according to Rick Priestleys interviews. Rick plus Richard Halliwell created and wrote it, alongside Tony Ackland. Priestly has on many occasions referred to the big influences on him in the creation of the game. In one he directly refers to Moorcock's Hawkmoon as an influence, albiet nuanced, in RT and the mystical sci-fi & high technology side. So, yes, I would suggest Moorcock was up there, not just for the 'Chaos' inference in the game.

 

[willlucv]

I vaguely remember that the Empire (pre 4th edition) lacked a cohesive miniature range, but were easily put together using say, Wargames Foundry Wars of the Roses or other late 15th/early 16th century figures. The main aesthetic is large bodies of professional soldiers or militia fighting on foot equipped with pikes or gunpowder weapons supported by mounted forces and later bonkers Da Vinci inspired weapons like the Steam Tank and War Wagon.

At much the same time I can remember being able to buy what were essentially completely historical 13th century/High Medieval miniatures (presumably sculpted by the Perry Twins) labelled as Bretonnians during the pre 4th edition era. This was before they released the 1991 range which was also completely historical in design. I don't remember any actual fantasy elements creeping into the aesthetic until the mid-90s.

The great thing about fantasy is that it is a complete grab bag of different elements mixed in with fantastical or anachronistic elements. Some of my favourite miniatures are the old 2nd edition CO1 Fighters range. They use lots of different influences and designs, frequently on the same figure (see below). Basically generically medieval rather than relating to any known period.

 

[Fighelm]

Just watching a warhammer film club/Jordan sorcery interview with Rick Priestley just now. @Michael Stockin don't know if you have watched it. At around 12 minutes in he mentions that he created the 'Warhammer world' (obvs with a healthy dose of parody with Hal's input) on 'that general feel of middle European gothick quality and hammer horror/house of horror... It was that standard trope.... And that old Peter Cushing vibe.. ''

He then later says he created it to be germanic (black forest vibe, castle on hill, werewolves in forest), so Empire = germanic. Then says the later guys (ie WHFRP supplements) took & made the Empire to be literally too German. Other 'grim' influences were from film: the devils - Oliver read,the warlord- Charlton heston, the lost valley - Michael Caine...

Rick Priestley on influences on 40k

 

[Fighelm]

I think I'll just say: Perry Twins. I think they had alot to do with stuff

Just watching an interview with Priestly and he said [with regards to minis for RT] the Perry Twins 'didn't much like doing fantasy or science fiction(!)... they had grown out of it then...and really only wanted to do historicals... so they did alot of the Empire stuff cos it was based on Landsknecht stuff, 16th century...'

 

[Michael Stockin]

Just watching a warhammer film club/Jordan sorcery interview with Rick Priestley just now. @Michael Stockin don't know if you have watched it. At around 12 minutes in he mentions that he created the 'Warhammer world' (obvs with a healthy dose of parody with Hal's input) on 'that general feel of middle European gothick quality and hammer horror/house of horror... It was that standard trope.... And that old Peter Cushing vibe.. ''

He then later says he created it to be germanic (black forest vibe, castle on hill, werewolves in forest), so Empire = germanic. Then says the later guys (ie WHFRP supplements) took & made the Empire to be literally too German. Other 'grim' influences were from film: the devils - Oliver read,the warlord- Charlton heston, the lost valley - Michael Caine...

Rick Priestley on influences on 40k

I always maintained The Last Valley was a great warhammer film. Just swap Catholics and Protestants with Sigmarittes and worshippers of Ulric and BINGO!

No surprises Hammer was a big influence.

 

[Fighelm]

I always maintained The Last Valley was a great warhammer film. Just swap Catholics and Protestants with Sigmarittes and worshippers of Ulric and BINGO!

No surprises Hammer was a big influence.

Yes, he said based on 30yrs war. Said Umberto Eco's book adaptation 'In the Name of the Rose' (Sean Connery) was his 'Warhammer' film =priests, religion, murder, magic, etc...

 

[Michael Stockin]

Oooh I will check that out. I may do a blog post about films that have worhamms vibes.